Sean Dyche: Modern Football Has Gone Too Far, Forest Exit & Managerial Secrets | Fan Debate

The Overlap

Welcome back to the Fan Debate, brought to you by Sky Bet! This time, Sean Dyche joins Jamie Carragher and our fans to discuss the changing role of a football manager and the biggest issues facing the modern game. Sean reflects on his Nottingham Forest exit and explains why expectations can change so quickly at a club. He also reveals how social media and agents can influence players, and why managers still need a say in the players they sign. Then it’s Arsenal’s set pieces. Sean explains the psychology behind their corners, why they have become such a weapon and how attitudes towards set-piece football have changed. Finally, Sean gives his thoughts on VAR, specialist coaches and whether fans are getting bored of slower football. Plus, he names the best player he ever faced and answers some quickfire questions. What’s your biggest concern about modern football? Let us know in the comments, and don’t forget to like and subscribe for more Fan Debate! 00:00 - Intro 13:13 - Forest Exit 23:17 - Dycheball Principles 28:57 - Arsenal Set Piece Myths 35:48 - VAR Frustrations 46:35 - Managing Modern Players 51:00 - Best Players Faced & Managed 55:05 - Quick Fire Questions SUBSCRIBE TO THE CHANNEL HERE https://www.youtube.com/c/theoverlap STICK TO UNITED WITH WAYNE ROONEY ON THE UNITED STAND https://www.youtube.com/@UnitedStand/videos JOIN THE OVERLAP WHATSAPP CHANNEL HERE https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VbC3WQvAYlUCoCqZgA45 SUBSCRIBE TO THE OVERLAP BREAKDOWN CHANNEL HERE https://www.youtube.com/@TheOverlapBreakdown SUBSCRIBE TO THE OVERLAP NEWSLETTER https://substack.com/@theoverlapnewsletter SUBSCRIBE TO IT WAS WHAT IT WAS PATREON Join here ➡️ www.patreon.com/itwas SUBSCRIBE TO STICK TO RUGBY HERE https://www.youtube.com/@TheOverlapRugby SUBSCRIBE TO THE STICK TO CRICKET CHANNEL HERE https://www.youtube.com/@TheOverlapCricket?subconfirmation=1 FOLLOW STICK TO CRICKET ON SOCIAL 👇🏏 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sticktocricket/ Facebook -…

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You've got to handle the fact that there's going to be loads of school degree sticks sells. It's just the way it is. [music] A lot of more players will believe the person in the stand when they believe the manager, their agent will ring and say, "Well, social media so they're doing really well." You'd be like, "Really?" >> Arsenal, [music] I think, found a bit of a gap in the market in the last couple of years. >> Yeah, they crossed it and added it in. To be fair, you're missing a bit. >> Yeah, but that's the master part of it is harassing the goalkeeper and closing him in. What's the most woke thing about football now? >> Where do you want me to start? We were going to get a place in Europe, I think. Do you remember the fair? >> Fair play. >> I weren't loving it. I said, "Right, go and start smashing people." I never [laughter] [music] >> Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Sky [music] Bet. I'm pleased to welcome back Sean Dish onto the sofa as well as our loyal fans. So, uh, how are we all enjoying the international break? >> Loving it. >> Very good. United don't play its class. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Good. Yeah. What are we thinking about this sort of uh three-w weekek rather than the two week? >> I think you should completely abolish the international breaks. >> Would you understand why they've done it that way? >> But it was worse when it was like September than two and then two. I think >> we've got five weeks of international football basically rather than six weeks that we had for whatever it was the last 15 years or so. So, uh we don't mind it. Uh >> I found out it was when I was working you get three weekends away. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. like a little little break in the sun. Uh well, have you had a little break in the sun on this international break? >> Uh no, not this one. Not this one. I've had plenty of breaks in the sun cuz I've been working [laughter] full employ. >> Uh right, let's crack on. Uh Sean, this is episode we're going to be talking about you, the the role of the manager. Uh how has that changed since you first started to sort of when you were in your last job? Well, I think what my very first job at Watford um and and Burnley and Everton, I suppose only forest slightly changed was this idea you're a manager, you know, not a coach. You know, nowadays the biggest the biggest it's not really a debate anymore. I think I think people are aware now, fans are aware that certain clubs have a a head coach and certain clubs have a manager. I've always been more the manager style of manager if you like or manager coach. I can coach obviously I've got my licenses but I've always thought the coaches coach you know as I got longer in the tooth in in management and management now in old school money if you like is so dominated with the amount of workload and media and all that sort of stuff um that it that it's harder I think to coach all the time but then other clubs obviously have a a head coach who really runs the team you know still does the media but don't really get involved in the running of the club it's just purely the team >> um so yeah I think that's how It's developing um and different clubs have still got different styles. I think the future of it will be more like the new style if you like. I think it'll become um talking future wise. I think it's going to become very Americanized. Personally, not just because of the amount of American owners. I think you're going to have like a GM as they call it, general manager and then a coach. The GM will be like a manager but kind of behind the scenes management and then the coach will do the press and the teams and all that sort of stuff. A bit like a director of football but a different version of that I think. Do you when you mention that and listen I don't know everything about American sports but when you think about set pieces coaches coming in now do do you think you could almost get to a stage >> I definitely want a throwing coach if I get another job and definitely >> you got to throw in coach h but you're almost like a coach for almost every area of the team. Yeah, I mean Big Sam to be fair bought that over. You know, people forget that. You know, he took his first year of criticism Big Sam, but he was one of the early adopters of all that. He was bringing all sorts of coaches in to work with this team, especially the Bolton side, of course. And so, credit to him for that, for being way in front of the curve. Um, I think the way it's going, I think, you know, I think it's gone. It's gone over precious with staff now. You know, there's there's not enough owners back on the ownership of players. You know, it's almost like, well, you didn't tell me this, you didn't tell me that. You know, I was used to have a laugh with some of the players where they say, "What you mean to say a little miss is left footed." You know, if to get to that degree sometimes when you go, "Well, you didn't tell me this, you didn't tell me that." So, I think there can be over an analysis on football without the players then for self-arning. You know, I think self-development is still a massively powerful thing and I think it's definitely something that should change in the younger age groups inademies because self-arning for me is almost obsolete now. where it's almost like the coach tells you what to do, you do some homework on it and now it's done and they go off and play on their Xbox or whatever it is to get away. I think they should be more self-arning and that'll create a more of a learning environment when they get older as first team players. You're talking about like sort of like kids playing football on the street playing their own games >> version of that. Yeah, I mean not quite that, but the facilities now incredible in thesemies. Um I know I'm reverse engineering this, you know, from the top level. My point is if if you're developing these products, right, as little kids, so little Johnny goes into the school or uh seven years old goes into the academy, right? They go through the academy system, they come out and by the time they come out of 18, they've got every single thing you can think of, you know, analysis, feedback, sheets, you know, documentation, everything. And it's like a job before it's a job. And then the first team manager comes along and if you haven't got all them coaches in place, they're like, "Well, we had them when we were seven." >> Imagine a set piece coach at seven. Really? Yeah, >> you get my point, don't you? So, I think I think we got to unravel it a little bit for me so that the end product at the top of the market comes out with a little bit more self ownership, a little bit more self-awareness, a little bit more football game savvy. Do you know what I mean? So, I think I think we've gone too far the other way. And part of that is going back to your point, you got staff just with people everywhere. I mean, you know, some clubs can I remember man city the first time they turned up a Burnley league. Imagine a Burnley little corridor in the changing room and there was like they had a support vehicle. They had like they had two buses and I was like what's that all about? So, you know, you got a squad of 20 players and you got 32 staff with them and I thought I don't even know where they live, you know, physically [laughter] I could physically get them in a stadium. Um, so yeah, so that's been of interest in my journey through management. Um, going back to your original question, management compared to coaching, I think it's a change. And then adding in the layers of staff now, I think it's it's at borderline overkill for me now. Mhm. Uh I want to bring the fans in and I want to ask you if you just want to volunteer sort of an opinion. If there was one key thing you would want to see from your manager at your club, what would it be? >> Three points. [laughter] >> Says the Tottenham fun. >> Gareth, I'll ask you uh we we you know whole great story in our managers at Liver. feels like a like almost like a you know privileged position. It's a privileged position but anybody or any club but we we look to it feels like we look to our managers a lot. But what is the one thing when Liverpool appoints a manager that you think it has to be that or I want that. I >> I guess I want him to care. I want I want him to feel like um you know he does genuinely care about about our club and that you know he's not just sort of here on a journey picking up a wage and getting getting to go somewhere else type of thing. I mean, you know, I I'll always probably because of me age and where I'm at and what I've seen, I'll probably will always go to Klopp and say he's the one who's who's most got it in my lifetime. And it almost felt like I think you're right, like it wasn't just a manager. It's almost like he was president of Liverpool Football Club, you know what I mean? And and like he stood for us and he said the right things and he went in for battles and he ged us up for European nights and all of that kind of stuff. It it's that, you know, of course you want him to coach the side. Of course you want three points. Of course you want them to to lift trophies, but you want them to sort of almost recognize our role in it all as well. And I think I think Klopp did. He'd often talk about we need the crowd behind us. Obviously very early on he made that point about people getting off early. And that's something we talk about all the time. Why do all these people get off early? You know what do you mean beat the traffic? Like stay and watch your team and support your team. And for the manager to say something like that was brilliant because it was like he gets it. I think with Postogler at Spurs, the stuff that he was coming out with, it felt like we had a manager that was back in the club um and and kind of backing the fans as well. It was like I know it didn't go incredibly well in the last season for him, but he he won a European trophy, finished fifth >> and but the way he he it always felt like he regardless of the situation, regardless of what was happening, he was defending Spurs and I really enjoyed that about about his management. I think protecting the players. I think one criticism I have of Artetta is there are a couple of individuals, one in particular in Sacka that I think plays a bit too much football and you can see that fatigue creeping up on him. I think he's been slightly overplayed and I think it's really important the manager protects their players on the pitch as well as off of it as well having that accountability if it doesn't go your way on the day. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there are certain managers that have come out and like put a little bit of pressure publicly on the players and that really grinds my gears. I think the manager should always take responsibility. >> Okay, question to Sean. Is that right? >> Well, I was going sw with the first question. Sorry. Go. >> Sorry about um if as a manager is there is the one of the most frustrating things to deal with the unrealistic expectations of supporters. One of the hardest things I just want to pick up on that point is how my generation of football fans are changing the youngsters. You know, he's now talking about managers protecting the players. I've never heard that in my life. I was a player, go get out there and play. >> So 10 years ago play fans would be saying, "What do you mean protect the players?" They should be playing all the time. They should be playing more games. Should be training even harder. Do you get me? So it's quite interesting that generation, this new generation of fan has got a different viewpoint. Do you know what I mean? They're now going too many games and all that. Do you get what I mean? I'd never heard that when you were L boy that go and get out there and go and win it for >> Don't say that again. [laughter] >> No, you get my point of explaining a generational shift. You know that's a generational shift for me. Maybe because modern fans have got so much information. Their depth of their knowledge is like saying things like that whereas fans of the past just go get out there and win win win a trophy for us. Do you know what I mean? >> It's like it's like the England players now isn't a couple the England players move load management. all going. Yeah. I mean, you've got to look after the players, I mean, as I said, probably 15 years ago, imagine turning up to an England in it cuz the welfare is more here now, >> you know, whether it's bought on by themselves as players through social media and all, or whether it's bought by just being a Premier League footballer and an international footballer, particularly international footballers with that on top. I think it's this part that the well-being is. It's not this part. They've never they've never been fitter. They've never had more support. They never had better diets. They were the modern generation not drinkers or anything like that. It's here. That's the biggest thing they need support with now. Not necessarily by psychology. I just mean a rest here, >> you know, get away from it. Go and have a break from that in my opinion. Anyway, sorry. Going back to your point. Sorry. >> Uh, no. I was just asking what what how difficult is it for I mean is is one of >> the expectation frustrate you? >> Yeah. I mean the expectation I've always believed this when whenever I got a job I said tell me the job that you want me to manage but don't keep shifting the goalpost. That's the hardest thing. Yeah. even if it's 11, it was like, "We have to stay in the Premier League and you're going to have no money." At least I knew it. Now, I didn't I couldn't go out and say that to the fans because they'd have gone mad. But that was the truth for it. They said, "Look, we're not going to have any money. Um, you're going to have to sell players and we got to stay in the division." That was it. And it, you know, it's in it in its raest form. But if you get at least internally, I knew that was my job. That's what I had to manage. Like Forest was different. Stabilize the club. So externally, you're getting stick, but I know internally I was stabilizing the club. So, it's a weird one. That's where it goes a bit wrong. At least Evan, they stood by me and saw me try and do it. At Forest, it doesn't last very long because the expectation, back to your point, the expectation changed so rapidly at Forest. You know, we beat Liverpool away, beat Tottenham, and it's like, why am we in the top six? And you got miles off the top six. Do you get what I mean? >> So, and that is becoming a problem for management now. It's it's not the expectation. The expectation is different. If you've just won the league at Arsenal this season, there's an expectation to go and win it again. That's sort of a semifair expectation, but when you when you're in a club that's got no chance, they're going, "Why aren't you playing like this and why you doing that and why you doing this and why you doing that?" You go, "What? What's that all about?" It's almost undeliverable. So, I'm always intrigued when I see managers interviews where they get to Glenn and they say, "We're going to do this, this, and this." And I'm thinking, "I'll be careful with that if I was you because to deliver what you've just said is going to be very, very difficult." Do you know what I mean? So, so finding the truth line, I call it the truth line. finding the truth line in the story and trying to just be positive about where the truth is with fans and tell them, "Look, this is my view. This is what I've taken over. This is what I hope to do." I try to do that. It doesn't always resonate well with fans. Oh, why are you being positive and all that? I go, well, because it's better than giving you a load of people basically. I prefer to be truthful on the way in and still stick to the story on the way out, good or bad news. Do you get what I mean? Whereas some managers go in and they promise these, you know, selling chocolate teapotss and I think you ain't going to deliver that. >> And sure enough, they don't. And then they think, well, I don't know what you're expecting in the first place because that's an undeliverable situation. But it buys you a short-term fix. The fans go, yeah, you know, I've got this brilliant new manager and he said we're going to win the league. And you go, you're not. Do you know what I mean? [laughter] >> Ellie, uh, before Flav rudely interrupted me, coming to you to ask a question. Uh, obviously big Forest fan. Sean, his his last job was at Nottingham Forest. You got a few questions. >> I do. So, I kind of related to that and everything we're talking about. When you first joined the club, obviously you started really really well and your job was stabilizing, which I always say you did. >> No, you did. I know people sent me your quotes and what you [laughter] >> But they sent me the people who weren't. That's fair to say they did. >> Yeah, I got accused of being paid for that as well, by the way. But that's another story. But I genuinely do believe >> Well, you didn't get the check. Oh, [laughter] hold on. >> But I do believe you came in and did exactly what you were supposed to do and the results proved that. But towards the end, there was a negativity surrounding the club, surrounding the fans, surrounding the football if we're honest. Was there truth in the rumors that the dressing room was gone? I mean, we're talking about protecting the players. Was there any truth in that? >> No. You hear it all the time at the end of the day. You can't if the dressing room's gone, which which is a silly phrase anyway in football, I think, but although although although to be fair, I've witnessed it myself when I thought in not my teams necessarily, but you can't. My last game, you can't have 35 ever as a goal if you trace where it's gone. You know, I mean, you can't do that. You know, the hardest bit of Jamie knows is the hardest bit in the world as a manager that frustrate me is gone and stick it in the net. That's the bit you can't do. They have to do that. But it's a it's a normally I think like I said I think the stat was there was only twice in the Premier League it's ever happened with that many efforts a goal and and someone didn't win because we drew obviously and then to lose your job over that that's frustrating when people are making up all these rumors but that is football now that's football management sorry you've got to handle the fact that there's going to be loads of school deary sticks cells it's just the way it is. It's the nature of humans you know that's the way it is. Why do you think we all read the, you know, no one reads the nice stories apart from when you save a cat or something? You know what I mean? Everything else is like, cool, has got an edge to it. That's why clickbait works. Do you know what I mean? We're all guilty of it. But clickbait works because they it's never clickbait. You never see a good story. It's always something with an edge to it. You know what I mean? So, what I'm saying is that's part of what you got to handle now as a as a manager. You got to handle the haters. The haters game very quickly. I mean, when I sit in stadiums, it's weird. I must tell you this. Well, I'll tell you the truth, Ralph's got. So, when I was out work, I get invited to some clubs to go and watch games. Um, so I'm sitting there and I direct going it's been rubbish today. And honestly once I learned over the team which club and I went I just did say it's been rubbish today and I said all you've been doing is looking at your phone. I said I haven't seen you see one part of the game yet. Just been staring at your phone. I said youngsters just there filming the game. They go rubbish and all that. I go how come you how would you know? Cuz you've just been looking through your phone. I'm serious. So that's a new thing to conten