Is this the end of Manchester CIty? | Football Weekly
Max Rushden is joined by George Elek, Dan Bardell and Barry Glendenning to discuss 'the biggest thing that's ever happened in football' - the Premier League finding Manchester City guilty on all but one count. Watch the full podcast episode ► https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHwKsuH5QsI Subscribe to Guardian Football ► https://www.youtube.com/@guardianfootball?subconfirmation=1 We want your feedback! If you had any thoughts on our coverage of the World Cup, please let us know here ► www.theguardian.com/YTWorldCupSurvey The Guardian publishes independent journalism, made possible by supporters. Contribute to The Guardian today ► https://support.theguardian.com/ Guardian Football Weekly: https://www.tiktok.com/@guardianfootballweekly https://www.instagram.com/guardianfootballweekly/ Website ► https://www.theguardian.com Facebook ► https://www.facebook.com/theguardian Bluesky ► https://bsky.app/profile/sport.theguardian.com Instagram ► https://www.instagram.com/guardiansport/ The Guardian on YouTube: The Guardian ► https://www.youtube.com/@theGuardian Football Weekly podcast ► https://www.youtube.com/@FootballWeeklyPodcast Guardian News ► https://www.youtube.com/@guardiannews Guardian Australia ► https://www.youtube.com/@GuardianAustralia Guardian Sport ► https://www.youtube.com/@guardiansport
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Michael says, "At what point is it considered refutable that Man City have irrefutable evidence of innocence?" Chuck says, "Should Liverpool and Man United do three separate parades or one parade with three laps?" So, the Premier League released an official statement confirming Manchester City's guilt yesterday. Um, I've got a few bits from it. An independent commission has found Manchester City FC guilty of all charges related to serious breaches of the Premier League's financial rules over a nine season period and the majority of charges in relation to its failure to cooperate with the league's investigation. The independent commission found that between seasons 0910 and 17 201718, Manchester City arranged sham contracts which misrepresented the true agreement between the parties with a number of its commercial partners as well as relying on sham agreements with others to artificially inflate the club's revenues and reduce its costs. The club filed misstated accounts and concealed the true state of its finances from its auditors and football regulators. Manchester City was significantly in breach of both the Premier League and UEFA spending limits. During the investigation, Manchester City committed multiple breaches of its duties of cooperation and utmost good faith towards the league and the commission concluded that the club had made concerted efforts to stop and frustrate the Premier League investigation. Barry is, you know, normally statements from official bodies are not extraordinary, but this was. >> Yeah. Um, and it's confirmation of what most of us have had a fair idea was going on for a long time. And I suppose the summary is that city cheated on an unprecedented industrial scale. They did so very deliberately and then tried to cover up their cheating by lying about it. And they lied consistently and deliberately. And it appears that despite this finding, they're showing no remorse or guilt whatsoever and are continuing to talk about this comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence that exists in support of our position relating to this case. They've been paring that line for years. uh and you wonder at what point if this irrefutable evidence exists are they going to produce it and show it to us and then we can put an end to the matter. Um I think the maybe the most interesting thing about yesterday is that we finally got some numbers put on the scale of their cheat sheeting and and it was quite astronomical. It's it's basically uh disguised funding 855 million and hidden costs of 66 million. So we're we're talking over [clears throat] 900 million pounds worth of cheating in their favor which is 100 million uh per season for the period involved. And that just seems extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. >> Yeah. At the lying of the witnesses, evidence given by a number of important factual witnesses called to give evidence on behalf of the club was false in a number of key respects. The commission wrote, arguing that some of the falsehoods had been deliberate. Certain of those factual witnesses had given evidence at the hearing that they knew to be untrue and so had been dishonest. I don't know if we should be surprised by the dishonesty, George. Just the people who have given these dishonest statements, you know, it's not the tea lady and the kitman doing it. It's it feels extraordinary. Yeah, it does. And also, I guess the point on the teen and the kit man is that they're kind of as well as the um fans who are showing some contrition and other things, you know, I guess they're the victims here in terms of of what's happening with the club as well as, you know, the other Premier League clubs who've been impacted and general Premier League fans. But yeah, I mean, I guess we shouldn't be surprised. Like, it feels like everything that Manchester City are being accused of and have been found guilty of is is relatively brazen. Um, you know, I'm I'm no lawyer, but I I don't understand how um everyone assuming that the Manchester City lawyers are trying to frustrate this this um process and trying to drag it out as long as possible. So, claiming irrefutable evidence and and lying um you know, being found to be to be lying about the evidence they're providing seems to be quite a bad way of going about that. So, it's just a total mess. Like, it feels like we're basically in a in a in a moment of civil war at the top table of English football right now. Um and it kind of given what's going on at the moment and reading the statements yesterday, it seems pretty crazy that Manchester City are going to be playing Premier League football in, you know, next weekend. Um as as domestic football comes back because the relationship between um the most successful club of the last 20 years and the the Premier League itself is obviously at a at a stage where in Manchester City they feel like they're being persecuted, but the Premier League are trying to do whatever they can to to implement the rules and and and basically stamp out what they see to be systematic cheating. So yeah, it's a it's a mess. It's a um how this, you know, it's hard to understand what the process is. Now, we saw the Premier League saying that they want this to come to a conclusion as soon as possible. It feels pretty unlikely um that we'll see any kind of resolution to this given the way that Manchester City are clearly looking to fight it rather than um you know, ask for forgiveness and and you know, accepting the the findings in the Premier League. So, I guess there's a a possibility that Manchester City might even win the Premier League this season despite all this going on, which um which would be pretty interesting given given the the noise. >> Manchester City's response, they issued a statement soon after the Premier League statement came out saying Manchester City Football Club is both disappointed and surprised by the opinion of the Premier League commission that's been published today. The club is innocent of the accusations made by the Premier League and a comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence exists in support of all its positions relating to this case. The club will therefore be relentless and where necessary proactive in any and all appropriate regulatory and legal forums. Jack says, "Do you trust a man who cannot blink for over three minutes?" This is the Ferren Soraniano video. By all accounts, producer Joel was saying there's an AI function that if I was say reading a long bit of text, he could he could do something that meant I gave eye contact to the camera like I'm doing now if you're watching on YouTube. Um but it doesn't tell you where to blink clearly. So it looks mad. Um he says the whole Premier League case against us is based on a single false accusation that the owner's personal money was somehow and secretly put into the club via some sponsors from Abu Dhabi. This is just not true. He also said we'll take all necessary action to protect the club and seek compensation from any party that tries to damage it now and in the future. Um they have until Friday to register their appeal. I mean there are so many ways we can discuss this Dan and and I uh I think back to when I asked you a difficult legal question. You said, "Oh, I hope he doesn't ask me on this a few months ago." But George's point about this season coming up, you know, that game against Liverpool, you know, just waiting for these sanctions to come out and also from, you know, actually you're an Aston Villa fan and Gabby Monah made a good point about the number of players you sold to Manchester City and that is, you know, over Barry Milner, Del and that is one club in one bit of this sort of extraordinary tangled spiders web. Yeah, I think there's going to be so many clubs that have kind of got individual grievances and and individual cases against what's happened with Manchester City here and it just isn't going to be a swift conclusion either. So, they're going to be going to countless grounds for probably a year, two years whilst this all gets ironed out because the appeal process I believe is going to take an awful long time. But, we're all going to be none the wiser to what's going to happen. Meanwhile, Manchester City are probably going to continue beating a lot of football clubs as they as they carry on through this journey. And teams like Stoke got to an FA Cup final and then Manchester City beat and that's a huge thing for Stoke. Villa at the time were battling Manchester City for for top four at a time when Manchester City had never finished in the top four. Villa and Newcastle fans have had massive grievances with the ways that the rules work. And we've always cited Villa and Newcastle fans that well when Chelsea got taken over, when Manchester City got taken over, they could go out, they could spend what they wanted, and they managed to turn themselves into the massive juggernauts they are today. So that's a problem cuz Villa and Newcastle can't do that now because of the rules, but little did anyone know that not only could they just go out and spend what they wanted, they could also just completely manipulate financials and just basically have free reign to go and do what they want. And I feel sorry for the for the fans. I think if I was a Manchester City supporter now, everything that's that's happened in the last 10 to 15 years would feel more than tainted to me because they can come out and say that Manchester City almost saying it's like a a single fact that is is wrong and is causing all this. There's 115 charges. I think I think it is. That's an awful lot of of wrongdoing. Like if they're not guilty of one thing, they're probably going to be guilty of of another. But I just I've struggled to see how like they can just continue playing in in in in the Premier League and as George says, potentially win the Premier League this season with all this just hanging over every single week. It is absolutely the biggest thing that's ever happened in football since I've watched football. We all waiting for the sanctions, right? I it's it is it is sort of that gif of is it Michael Jackson eating popcorn going what are they going to do? What can they what can they possibly do? I I I I I just so I can't you know I don't know what I expect you to answer with but I just I think that moment we are all and it's so weird you know this we all get into this to watch football and now we're waiting for this thing to be decided by an independent panel whatever about the sanctions get to them but city pre Abu Dhabi city when they were down in the third division their fans used to sing this song we're not really here which was quite funny because the notion of City being in the third tier was quite ridiculous. That's where they were. >> And if they continue playing in the Premier League this season, which looks certain to happen, it's almost going to be the same. They're they're there, but they're not really there because all evidence suggests they're not going to be there for very much longer. But I don't think they can be on the Premier League's role of honor. I I think they need to be stripped of the titles. Not sure there's much appetite even from players and clubs involved. Well, I know Tony Pulis wants his FA Cup. Wayne Rooney doesn't want any extra league medals that are tainted by association with cities cheating. There there are different views on that, but I think the Premier League for the years they've won it and possibly the years since because what they won eight trophies in the time they're under investigation, but I think they've won 15 or 16 since um not counting Community Shields, there's there's league titles, there's FA Cups, there's Carabel Cups, there's a World Club Cup, um the UEFA Super Cup, uh and a Champions League. Um, so as far as the Premier League is concerned, because it's they who took action against City, I think those years should maybe be left blank, they can't possibly stay in the Premier League, but the question then is where do you put them and for how long? Uh, do you give them multiple points deductions year so to make it incredibly difficult for them to work their way back to the Premier League? Do you give them mass uh transfer bans so they can't bring in new players? presumably if they're down in League 2 or the Northern Counties League or wherever it is they end up Erling Holland and everyone else isn't going to want to stay there. Um so it it is absolutely fascinating to see what happens. But as for their immediate future in the Premier League, it just renders the competition a farce if they're still playing in it and still top of it while they've been found guilty of these charges. It it just makes a mockery of the competition. And maybe the competition deserves that because it's largely the Premier League's fault. Well, not largely. It's Manchester City's fault, but the the Premier League are fairly complicit in this mess that they've allowed. Do you think so happen? >> Do you think cuz I think they've been I think they've at the same time been maybe they've been complicit, but also they've done I'm sort of surprised that they've pushed it this far in this case. Do you see what I mean? >> I'm not sure what option they had. [laughter] Like um once once all those documents emerged, the the the football leagues >> and I mean we saw the arrogance of of city officials um corresponding with each other in those we can do what we want you know we we can do whatever we want um so I I don't think the Premier League had any other option than to pursue this to the stage it's got to now George >> there seems to be a fair bit of confusion as to what the Premier League can actually do in terms of punishment. You know, a point seduction that they can administer, you know, whenever um is the obvious one, but as Barry says there, if once that once they relegated from the Premier League, if they were to be hit with a, you know, say a 90 point deduction or something to that would basically ensure their relegation and you consider the the points deduction that Everton got for a far smaller financial misdemeanor. Um then, but once they're once they're out of the Premier League, then suddenly they'll be playing they'd be a championship team, they' be playing in the EFL. and therefore the EFL would have to um be the ones dishing out the punishment. And as we've seen in the past with with Leicester's own financial issues, you know, they got promoted and they had to wait until they were back in the EFL in order to actually um hit them with a punishment. So I I I don't know how it would work. We've obviously seen precedents for other cases where, you know, you look at other teams who've who've been banished from from leagues and other things, but I don't know how it would work. Like I've seen a lot of speculation about Manchester City ending up in non-league and things, but I I this is a question more than a point. like I don't know what the actual um powers that the Premier League have beyond a you know beyond going uh through a sporting sanction for whilst they're still a Premier League club. >> Sure. I I saw um Kieran Magguire I heard amazingly on another outlet uh saying you know that there's been a sort of separate thing where the Premier League and seem to be getting on quite well at the moment. So the Premier League and EFL could kind of come to an agreement because I was debating this with Charlie Baker on the radio. He's a lower league football fan. So am I. I think fans would, you know, I would be quite happy if Man City were in League One and Cambridge got to play them. I think most EFL clubs would see the pound signs of, you know, okay, this would be great for the broadcast rights. This would be a big story, City going up through the leagues. But he was saying, well, it completely >> ruins the sort of sporting integrity of the the league when they're in it. So there is a there's a difficult balance there. I think it's a huge if the plan would be to basically punish them for for four consecutive seasons to ensure relegation out of the the 92 then you're going to have a bit of a fast but every season a season in the Championship is going to start with a team on minus too many points to to make it back up again. >> Sure. >> And then you only have two relegation spots and then three from League One and then one, you know, if you're actually going to go the whole way down into League Two. >> Could they not do a deal with the FL to put them straight into League Two? Not saying you're going to have this points deduction, this deduction, this deduction. >> Maybe, but I don't know. I mean, I guess there's a whole another legal battle coming then where the the Manchester City will then challenge whatever punishment is is dished out to them. It just it's easy for us as fans sitting on the sidelines saying, you know, it's a disgrace. They should be chucked out, but there are actual, you know, there are only certain things that the governing bodies can do and clubs can fight them. So, um how they go about um dishing out the the punishment will be interesting. >> It'd be interesting as well, Dan, to see how players react. Listening to some couple of things. Listen to some ex players. cuz I heard Joe Hart was on Five Live saying listen until there's a decision, you know, I believe in my club. I don't know how he feels now. And I'd be interested to see the first Manchester City player, if there is one who's won lots in this era to say, I'm really unhappy about this. Um, you know, I just wonder if Kevin De Bruyne or someone will be like, well, hang on. But then there's the current players like, does Elliot Anderson have a clause in his contract? Like these players that have signed so recently, what will they be talking about in the dressing room? like like they will they will play at this game. The this is the game at Anfield is the next game at Anfield. Like I >> think so. Yeah, >> they will play in that game and they will see the reaction. I wonder what they're talking about in the dressing room. Will they try and leave in January? Will, you know, will there be a fire sale? Cuz if they go down, they won't be able to afford the wages anyway because of the EFL rules. There's just so many unanswered questions. >> Yeah, that kind of fits in with what George was saying. It's another problem. If they do move down the leagues, they're going to instantly be breaking rules as soon as they as soon as they enter that league. saw the clip of of Ruben Diaz and and Erling Harland speaking to each other after after the game in in midweek and uh I think it's quite clear what they were what they were probably talking about at that time. It's difficult for the players because a lot of them signed before this was really a thing. They're not guilty. They're guilty by association because they play for Manchester City, but theoretically those players haven't done a single thing wrong and they're going to be going to grounds and and getting abuse every single week. I mean, if someone like Enzo Fernandez, who's just signed for them, he'd probably be getting that anyway, but you they're going to be traveling to grounds and and getting so much stick for something that they're not really complicit in. And part of me wonder, and I'm probably way off the mark here, part of me wonders whether Manchester City have an idea of what the punishment might be. their their transfer activity has felt very busy over the last few windows, like almost like hunkering down and getting ready for maybe a period where they won't be able to to buy players and and having a a younger squad, a more malleable squad in in in place. It's just so hard. I find it really difficult to talk about and I'm sure everyone else doing it feels exactly the same because we've never had to speak about anything like this before. We we've all had to speak about football finances way more than we would have liked to hav