Has VAR Broken Football? This Arsenal fan FIRES hard questions at Mark Clattenburg | The Pitch
Host of the Daily Mail’s ‘Whistleblowers’ podcast, former Premier League referee Mark Clattenburg is under the spotlight, asking the questions supporters up and down the country have been shouting at their TVs for years. From inconsistent decisions to a lack of transparency, VAR is on trial. football premierleague var
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It's the worst VR decision since, well, last week. But today, instead of just complaining, we're asking a bigger question. How do we actually fix VR for good? Technically, it was correct to disallow Manchester City's third goal against Liverpool. But that's the problem. The letter of the law applied by V is draining the life out of football. Fans are fed up. I'm fed up. Even Mark Clattenburg, the former referee, is fed up. Five clear issues. One obvious solution. Let's break it down. Three, two, one. >> Gladiator's ready. [laughter] >> Right, Mark. In the first half of last season, there were 30% fewer V errors than the first half of this season. Were you in favor of it in the first place? >> I was definitely in favor. And why I was in favor was it can save a referee's career. We look back at Tierry Henry's hand ball and the referee Martin Hansen from Sweden. That ended his career. He failed to see the hand ball which cost Ireland the chance to play in a tournament and that was a key moment for a referee knowing that one decision you're away from ending your career. So V was supposed to be introduced to stop the big error. Unfortunately it's causing more anxiety. It's causing more problems than it was originally brought in for. >> So it might not end the referee's career. But could it then potentially, you know, end the career of the video assistant referee on the day? >> It stopped the power of the referee. I think what we've seen over the the the number of years that it's been introduced in the Premier League, the referee's power has become less and less. And now all of the power which is in an office in Stockley Park is now running a Premier League match. and what they say. Yes, we have one or two situations where the referee hasn't backed what the VR has done, but most of the time the VR is dictating to the referee and even when a referee's made a mistake on the field of play, which can happen of course, the VR isn't putting it right >> and this is where the frustration lies. >> So [clears throat] for you, obviously when you were refereeing in Saudi and China, you're an incredibly experienced referee by that point. So if someone less experienced to you had said, "Look at the monitor, potentially change your decision." You would have felt comfortable enough in your own ability not to change your decision. Is the issue now though that we're having inexperienced referees going to the monitor being told something by someone with more experience and then feel as though, oh, I must have made a mistake. We saw that recently with a very experienced VR with a new referee who was an ex- football player making his debut in the Premier League. And was it a ham ball or not? What he did was he stuck by all of his training. He stuck by what he believed football expected and decided to go against the VR, which was very unusual for an inexperienced referee. But that's not what the VR is for. It shouldn't be about seniority. It shouldn't be that the VR should be worried about the the experience of the referee or the least experienced referee. For me, it's about getting the decision right. >> Yeah. And do you think it gets the decision right more often than not then? If you've said what you've said before, there's 30% more errors this season. >> There's more errors or perceived errors this season than ever before. >> This this is not always down to the laws of the game. >> This is down to the inexperienced group of referees that they have now within the Premier League, which they didn't have many years ago. >> Well, as we said, there are five key issues with refering at the moment. And VR, it is the flavor of the week. It's the one that everyone would say is the main issue consistently. One of the things really annoying fans is the lack of speed in the decisions. Do you think there should be a time limit on how long it takes if it's so clear and obvious mandate is followed? >> There's been talk within the Pione world, there's been talk within i5 that if it's taken more than 30 seconds, there's no hard rule of course, but if it's taken more than 30 seconds, then it can't be a clear and obvious error. Yeah, you've got one or two situations where maybe it's an offside, it's a difficult offside, maybe there's players blocking the way the technology is used and they can't get the last point of contact which can create time. But my argument is if it's taken 15 20 seconds, I would prefer that the referee goes to the onfield monitor with the V has the discussion for 30 seconds or 45 seconds, make that decision between themselves and get on with the game. What I don't like is we have three minutes of standing around. Then he sends the referee to the monitor to make a decision which is going to then most of the time stick with the VR's decision anyway. So let's get the what other sports are doing. Let's learn from other sports like rugby union and cricket. Let's hear the audio. Let's hear the conversations together. Get both match officials and let's hear what has been said. >> Well, absolutely. That moves us on to the next point which is all about communication. For me, Mark, I do not understand why as of this season, the referees will just say the decision that would automatically just be put on the big screen anyway. All they're doing is saying it. Do you not think that just undermines the intelligence of the fan who actually want to understand why this decision's been made? If this part if this is part of a process that eventually we are going to listen to the audio, then I'm all for the steps. We've gone from no communication >> which never had any transparency. We didn't know what was being said. We're now allow broadcasters to listen what is being said, but they can't produce what is being said. Of course, we're now allowing the referee to communicate really what's being advertised on the on the scoreboards. >> It feels like the same thing. What we're what what I'm worried about with communication is what we cannot allow is the broadcasting company and the TV companies being able to allow the audios to be listened to the people at home and not in the stadium >> because if you allow that will that stop the footfall within stadiums and will people rather watch it on TV than in a stadium? Well, it taps it taps into a lot of people think and that's that the armchair fan is the one that's being prioritized because realistically often for a fan if you go to the game you have the worst view and you have the less least knowledge of what's actually going on. I [laughter] but if you if you had to sum up for me though why it is the the the the fans can't hear it just in like in like one sentence because for me this is the most frustrating thing about communication >> one step and I think I've happened and FIFA I've always been worried because this is a new even though it's been going for maybe six years seven years it's still a new project a product it's still a new project the problem we've got is you've got it's used across all of football right across the world so there's different interpretations right across the world. I think now the top leagues and the World Cup and Champions League and European Championships are now that far advanced. We now will be the next step possibly in the World Cup certainly in the Euro 2028 where it will be heard on broadcast and in the stadium. And I would love to see how we follow Rub where the referee stands there, he's communicating with the V and hopefully we can see it on a big screen. Not all stadiums are ready for that yet. Of course, that's the difficult. >> But at least we'll be able to hear something and then eventually >> when things develop, we'll be able to see it as well. >> It feels to me I remember when you know Nigel Owens was refering in rugby in cricket Razi Rasmus as an umpire. These people are seen as knowledgeable and wellrespected people. I think because there's such a disconnect between the fans and the referees, it's not seen in that same sort of way. The last referee who might have been universally respected was Pier Luigi Kina potentially. >> Thanks for that. [clears throat and laughter] >> But unfortunately, Mark, they didn't all see it the way I saw it. >> They didn't all see it the way I saw it. But do you know what I mean, though? It's like why why is it we we see referees as this is this body who's meant to just be like a robot. Can we not actually start to understand their personalities, their thought process? >> But football's changed over the period of time. I was allowed to use me personality. Pier Luigi Kina was allowed to use his personality. We saw a situation I think it was a few months ago with an Everton player being sent off and he slapped his own player. >> Yeah. >> And it was it was minimal and it was one of them where in my era we would have been allowed to manage it. That isn't allowed anymore. It everything's become precise >> and there's so much because of the way technology's been brought in >> because everything is needs to be perfect. Football isn't perfect. We've lost that >> ability to be able to see it how football wants because you know what football and football fans are knowledgeable. Coaches are knowledgeable. Players are knowledgeable. They understand the game. >> One of the things that I see with these modern day referees now is they don't understand the game. They've lost that connect because they want to be perfect and they're saying, you know, the when to get involved, they are to get involved when they're not. What's a foul? What's a not there? so much perfection and I don't like that. Football isn't perfect. >> It's not. Do you think that fans will only begin to respect referees properly if the players do so in rugby for example and I know in football they're trying to do this only the captain can speak to the referee. Football they've tried to implement it but it looks it doesn't look exactly it's not happening. >> No, it never does. >> So is that what we need then? Do we need that domino effect for the players then the fans and then it will feel better? >> I think in general players are well disciplined. They only get ill disciplined when they they think that there's been a mistake made or there's not an understanding >> of why something was made. And when you see decisions >> on the field of play and there's so much doubt, there's so much nervousness. >> That's when it goes to the players. Then it goes from the players to the crowd. I I remember refereeing it. When players didn't give me descent, the crowd level was low. when players started giving you a descent >> because they saw a perceived mistake the atmosphere rose and sometimes what I see in referees as well is they don't have the ability now to manage everything it's not just the laws of the game they have to manage the stadium they have to manage the players have to manage the coaches they have to manage a lot of things and they've lost that ability >> I agree that's really interesting point you make we will move on to in a in a further card you know abuse of referees and how and how much of a big thing it is I remember though Actually, when I it was Stuart Atwell was the referee. I was at an Arsenal versus Manchester City game and the Arsenal players on the pitch felt completely wronged by a decision. I wasn't listening to commentary cuz I was in the stadium and the fans really got we it was like it was so toxic. It was like a siege mentality. The decisions actually as we went home were correct. It was the right thing that had happened. But because we see these players giving this much abuse to the referee, we're like they must be in the wrong. But I think not saying all them years ago winning wasn't important. Of course it was important to win. >> But the way that everything is structured now within the Premier League and the relegation and Champions League, there's more places up for grabs. It creates this I wouldn't say animal, but it creates this thing that there's a lot of pressure put on referees. And you see coaches, you see players doing it deliberately. M >> you know you heard Rodri came out recently in in an interview with um >> after the Spurs game >> after the Spurs game because he feels that referees are wrong in his team >> and he forgets that he could have had two yellow cards in the game of course that only remember what they want to remember of course but it's pressure >> you know Satlex Ferguson used to do it at Manchester United for years used to put pressure on referees he would get his players to put pressure on referees that stopped for a while and now we've got this new generation of coaches young coaches, they're putting pressure back on the referees and they're getting the players to do it. And when players are doing it systematically, it's very difficult for a referee to give a yellow card for descent because it it's like he's doing it, the next one's doing. The only way the referee can deal with is by saying to the captain, you're the one that's responsible for your team. You're the one that's going to >> get the punishment. >> Did it ever impact you, the atmosphere? Did you ever do you ever think that you made a decision that was based on the atmosphere in the stadium? >> Never. But always the atmosphere was always it's always difficult when the games when the atmosphere is toxic >> because they want everything. It puts pressure on the referee. You feel subconsciously what I don't want to make a mistake. >> But for me that wasn't what it was about for me. You had to manage all of this. And yeah, there was games where I didn't get it right. But most of my time I was trying to manage the players, the coaches, the atmosphere, everything around to keep the pressure and calm as possible. Because if you keep it calm >> and everybody's calm, fans think, "Oh, that referee was good." >> I I can't imagine being in the center circle when you've got 80,000 people hanging on what you know, what decision you make. How does it actually feel in there when it's an absolute cauldron and you're going to make a decision that you know is going to be unpopular? I remember it was me first game after that signed for Saudi Arabia in 2017. It was West Bromal being V Bulmouth and I'd signed in Saudi Arabia. I had a weekend off and then the following week I was asked if I would like to referee again. I was going to referee at the end of the season but this was the next game and I made three huge decisions against West Brom. Three all unpopular decisions. All three I backed me judgment. I was in good position. I seen them and I called them >> as I would any other time. One of them was an offside which the assistant didn't flag for >> and Darren Fletcher couldn't believe that I was given an offside but he went to the technical area. Somebody must have told him I was right. Came back and he said, "Mark, I'm sorry." >> Okay. >> But the atmosphere by the coach Tony Pulis >> and the crowd and anybody that's been to West Brom, the fans come out and there's a window on the main road where the referees dress and they are banging on me dressing room uh window. How's that feel? >> Shouting obscenities >> and I'm thinking to myself, I hope I've got them right. >> But it was so toxic that they blamed me >> for what they believed were injustices. Only when they've been able to watch it on match of the day did they say it wasn't injustices. And the following week I went back as fourth official. >> Nobody said it. >> Could you hear the manager when they're giving you pelters on the touch line? Uh you can can sometimes, but what you try and do is you you wanna you're trying to deflect. You're not want to engage in somebody that's angry because you know what? There's only going to be one result. >> It's possibly that he's going to be dismissed. So what you're trying to do is on the field of play, if the technical man's here, you want to be keeping as far away as possible. Hopefully in time he's going to calm down. >> And most of the time they did calm down. Was there during your time in refereeing much work done on mental stability and how to deal with the pressures and and the hatred? >> We did have sports science um and psychologists um in the last few years of my refereeing career. I wasn't a big believer of it. some referees needed it more than others to deal with the pressure, deal with um the abuse because what we had when I was a referee, we didn't have social media when I first started in 2004. In the end, social media started to play a part. Now it's even bigger. We've now seen players getting affected by social media. >> So, the abuse that referees see on social media is a lot worse than when I first started. >> Would a referee ever check his phone at halfime? never would. One thing that the Premier League introduced which was right um so no referees could be accused of match fixing or causing any your mobile phones were turned off and it was a company Premier League for PGM World phones. So that was always the the the the practice of turning it off. You knew you'd made a mistake at Halime because >> people in media players would certainly tell you if you've made a mistake. Another issue that is massive in refereeing is the perceived lack of accountability. So PG MOL is funded in part by the Premier League, but also it is an independent body. When a decision is made by a referee which is perceived widely as wrong and sometimes proven to be wrong, that man that referee more often than not is not sacked and they can be there next week or or the week after. >> That's not a sack. [laughter] Jeez, >> I would have been sacked many times. I would be P45. P45. >> But as a fan, I look at it and it looks to me like a group of lads who are friends, who look after each other, who protect each other. As someone who's been in there, can you say that's right or wrong from my perspective? >> I wouldn't call them friends. They were colleagues. I would never say referees are are really friendly together because everybody wants the big games. Everybody knows what's going to happen. The issue I find about accountability now when I made a mistake certainly in Champions League I wouldn't get another match but they had so much quality >> that they could survive without Mark Clattenburg refereeing in the latter stages of the Champions League if I'd made a mistake and that happened in a game in Juventus uh Bayern Munich I made a mistake and I didn't get any more matches that season >> that's acceptable >> that's that's that's accountability and that drives you for perfection >> because when you know that if If you make a mistake, you're pushing yourself to another level to stop making them mistakes because you know you don't want to >> lose any more matches. Certainly at the highest level in Champions League. >> The issue you've got when I went and uh was selected on the Premier League in 2004. There was 24 referees. I was the lowest quality. >> Now you weren't, >> but technically I was 23 or 24 in the group. And that was an interesting thing because within the first season I was refereeing some of the biggest games. So even though I was the 24th weakest person technically with Graeme Paul maybe number one and I had that much quality, anybody could referee any game. >> And even though I was 24th and inexperienced, I was refereeing some quite high profile games. >> And I remember in me first season I refereed Charlton Crystal Palace which decided Crystal Palace getting relegated. So that just shows >> the the the confidence that they had in my ability. >> The issue you've got now is there's 20 >> and you've got some of the guys and Anthony Taylor's not one of them. He doesn't do V but he's only a referee. Michael Oliver for example. He could be a V. Craig Porson make a mistake as a V or perceived mistake as a VR. the following week they're refereeing because they have to >> because if they don't they've got no ref