WORST Premier League winners of ALL TIME? Fans play AGREE or DISAGREE | The Pitch
If Arsenal win the Premier League… would they be the WORST champions ever? Flex (United View) and Chelsea fan Kweku Afari go head-to-head on that and it gets HEATED! The team also debate whether Tottenham Hotspur are too good to go down, who will have the better career, Benjamin Šeško or João Pedro, and can Michael Carrick and Liam Rosenior replicate what Mikel Arteta has built at Arsenal? manchesterunited arsenal premierleague thepitch
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Would Arsenal be the worst team to ever win the Premier League? >> When you sell your soul, you better deliver. Cuz if they don't win it, scary conversation. >> Oh, we will be there. I [laughter] I will I will be there if they don't do it. Are Tottenham too good to go down? The Dr. Tottenham thing is it it started off as a joke. It's real. >> It's real. Will Sesko outshine Lautaro Pedro in the long run? Mhm. Could have foreseen that one. >> And can Carrick and Mourinho replicate what Arteta has done at Arsenal? I know that at my club, if you finish eighth and then eighth and then >> [laughter] >> you weren't going to be the job. >> On this episode of The Pitch, Manchester United fan Flex and Chelsea fan Kwaku Afari go head-to-head. Arsenal would be the worst team to ever win the Premier [music] League. 3 2 1. >> [laughter] >> Hey Kwaku, you got to kick us off. >> Okay, so Arsenal fans are going to come for you in the comments. Regardless, we know how active they are. It's just the style of football. It's the style of play, like you said. Um and there's also a projection of the points. Don't get it twisted. I think this Arsenal defense they had the they had the opportunity to to become legendary in terms of the goals conceded. Maybe they concede a bit too many goals now, but going forward, it's historically bad. Um and when you think about teams that won the Premier League that haven't necessarily been upper echelon, you think maybe Leicester in 2016, but you look at Vardy and and Mahrez in that front line. That's way better than what Arsenal got right now in terms of output. And they are conceding goals now. They're not set setting any records. And so when I look at this Arsenal team, yes, get it how you can get it. Win the Premier League and I I would do the same thing if I was Chelsea manager and we had to go and win our first title for over two decades. But the style of football, the style of play, the projection of points as well, I think this Arsenal team will go down as one of the historically lesser teams to win the Premier League. It's Do you know what it is? It's like a it's like a gaslighting statement. >> [laughter] >> It is. It is. Because on one hand, you got Arsenal fans who will absolutely not care how they get their first title in 21, 22 years, etc., etc. And it's all about just being the best of the season of which you're in. I think the way Arsenal are has coincided with this shift in the style of the Premier League. And they happen to be the best at this style. If they were going up against a mammoth Manchester City like Liverpool were doing in the prime years under Klopp with Pep, swashbuckling football, high-scoring, you know, attractive football, um playing on the front foot, going after teams, dominating teams, suffocating teams, and and all attack, then this Arsenal team wouldn't stand a chance against those teams. That you could say the same for Arne Slot last year. What happened to to to Manchester City last year? They went on a generational losing streak that we'd never seen before. What happened to Arsenal? They didn't invest in the squad properly around January time, didn't invest, and they fell off. And Liverpool kind of they weren't great, were they? And I think we need to separate the statement of going do Arsenal fans should we care that Arsenal won't be a championship-winning team that we remember for many, many years, or was the league just like not that great? Are we confusing entertainment for quality here a little bit though? Cuz everyone talks about the goals and the way that Arsenal are scoring the goals. But actually, if you think about the defense and the goalkeeper, there's there was a case to be made that all of them could be in the Premier League team of the season so far. >> Yes. Yeah, defensively, for sure. Yeah, for sure. So that So that So that So they can't be the worst in that case. >> Well, but then you look at the the top scorers in the league, right? And on projection, I think only Haaland and Erling Haaland will get to 20-plus goals. And so you can say that the attacks in the Premier League aren't as potent as they were previously. Again, it's all relative. I think back to the Man United team that won the treble in '99. They finished on 79 points. It took a miraculous kind of turnaround in the FA Cup semi-final against Arsenal to win that game, and you won the league on the final day of the season. There's a misconception that everything looks pretty all the time. >> 100% but that's cuz it's one of the greatest teams in English football history. Champions League final, very fortunate, and everything fell in place. Arsenal could still win the quadruple this season, and everything I'm saying They can't do that. They can. >> They can't They can't >> [laughter] >> You see I but I was not I'll give the credit where it's due, but they they can't win the league. Okay, so why did you hold up you should have held up the the green flag? No, not because they're not they're not the worst Premier League team winning ever. I'm just saying that that means to win the quadruple you'd have to be one of the greatest. Okay, cool. No one's ever done that. Yeah, no one's ever done that. They ain't doing that. I'll tell you that. I'm not saying that they will, but if you look at the Premier League I wouldn't have them as favorites, but they're still top of the league right now. Champions League, we saw how that draw went. My goodness. Oh, they should be walking to at least the semi-finals. At least the finals. Barcelona are not that good. And then you look at the they're in the finals of the Carabao Cup. There's a 50/50 chance. They've got they've got who have they got? Mansfield? Yep. Come on. This is The footballing gods are conspiring to let Arsenal >> [laughter] >> have the easiest route. After years of not conspiring. Yeah, after years of them yeah, messing up on their own. Do you know Do you know which team has got the lowest points in Premier League history for a for a title-winning campaign? Yeah, United United with 75 points. So if Arsenal get 11 points in the last nine games or match it. But it's relevant to the it's relevant to the league. I can't remember who comes second in in in the in the said year that you're talking about. But whatever the bar is to win the league, Liverpool got 98 What did they get? 98 points? And what? Didn't win And didn't [laughter] And didn't win. So then are they terrible? No, it was just that the threshold was so high during that season. It's a different question if you're asking can this Arsenal team dominate the Premier League like City? Can this Arsenal team keep competing for the title when City get their act together? Liverpool get their act together? Maybe Chelsea? Maybe United? Those are those are different questions, but in terms of the relevancy of this season, I'm talking about the whole product of the Premier League, mate. We're talk We're celebrating Coyote. >> [laughter] >> No, that This is what's going on in the Premier League. We're celebrating Coyote. Is that a bad thing? Uh not necessarily because you could for me what I think is poor football. We had Russell Martin come up from the Championship last year and try and play like Pep. [laughter] For me, that's a bad product. Players who are not good enough to play a certain style. So, if anything it's more effective, but then when you see what Everton did to Man United uh corner after corner and it was it was like Royal Rumble. >> Yeah. Something's got to be done. So, we need to find a middle point, but I just think Arsenal I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think Arsenal are being unfairly victimized because of the way this like the way the season has gone in terms of the football. They're just the best at this type of football. It's just synergy. Okay, cool. But when you do the PFA team of the season at the end of the year >> None of their forwards are getting in. And I don't think it's ever happened in the Premier League history. The team that wins the league doesn't have a forward in the team of the season. Like that I mean come on. I think we're moving the goal posts here. Do you know what I mean? Cuz it's an it's a team apart from that Chelsea team under Mourinho the first time. Possibly the best ever defensive unit that we've actually seen in the league. As I say, it could be you know, four potentially. I don't think the left back would get in in the team of the season. >> Yeah. So, so why does it matter if they got goal scorers on there? Cuz it shouldn't They've got such a good system. They coach so so well. They still win. Yeah, it's for for sure. For sure. And then people can point to to Arsenal pre-Wenger saying that this is Arsenal's heritage. But when Dennis Bergkamp walked through the doors and Arsenal Arsene Wenger walked through the doors, the culture of Arsenal changed. There's a reason why there are so many Arsenal fans everywhere cuz there was a style of football that came with winning. And that Arsenal team in the late '90s and the early '90s were special to watch. Not only physically strong, but also entertained. And I do think the heritage clubs and I get Arsenal, Chelsea, but the heritage clubs in this country are Man United, Liverpool, and Arsenal. And there's an obligation of those teams to not just win, but play a certain type of >> but you know what, Kwaku? There is, but not when you haven't won a title in 22 years. And I think what we're doing here now is we are moving the goal posts because what what and I've and I've been there, right? This Arsenal team is soft. This Arsenal team is naive. The back end of this Arsenal team plays great football, but do they get over the line? Now they've got a steel about them where they can't be bullied. they can't get their bellies tickled. They're rugged, they're ugly, you know, they're resolute. You know, all of all of the things that maybe sometimes Jose Mourinho's Chelsea were. Like just a little bit of things that we don't associate this with like you say Arsenal, you associate with a a prettiness, a sexiness about their football. Now we're not seeing that. It's almost like we're trying to pivot where they've been there they've been the top at the top of the table. We need to see if they get over the line. But if they get over the line in this fashion that monkey's off their back in terms of they can't do it, they bottle it, they've got no mentality monsters, they can't do this, they can't do that. If they get over the line playing like this, I think it just shows that they went and fixed their issues and we just didn't like the style. Well, I I and I I take that point. But when you sell your soul, you better deliver because if they don't win it, >> [laughter] >> you 100% and so that's that's the problem. It's like if you don't win it, Arsenal fans had to chin this which again, I give them credit for doing, right? They're going to the Emirates and we can't deny the product is not amazing. It's not even comparable to the Arsenal 22-23 side that had worse players. That was That was playing better football. So I get it, you got to get it how you get it. But if you don't win it, scary conversation. Oh, we will be there. I I will [laughter] I will be there if they don't do it. But right now, at the time of recording, mate, they're top of the league. They've eaten into their cushion. It's difficult, but they're still they're still pulling out results by the skin of their teeth, by hook or by crook. The next one. Tottenham are too good to go down. Three, two, one. >> [laughter] >> Okay. Okay. Start with you on this one, Flav. Absolutely not. This is a follow one. What we're not realizing with Spurs, right? This is a continuation. You know like a flash in the pan relegation of like well, everything just went wrong that one They finished 17th last year. Do you get that? They got 22 losses last year, I believe, off the top of my head. So this is a follow one. The home record, absolutely shocking. And what it proves is is that it's not just Ange, it's not just Thomas Frank. Rich If he's reads our Igor Tudor has gone in there now at time of recording two losses on the bounce. This is a steep rooted systemic thing. And listen, I will I will never forgive my team for what we allowed Spurs to do. For all of football really to be honest with you. Man you know I still have Although I'm back in love with them now, I will never forgive them for letting me go to the San Memes Stadium in Bilbao and witnessing that and letting them actually win a European trophy. However, this is what they are. And are they too good to go down? Absolutely not. The problem that they've actually got now is that not just that they've got a whole 11 out and the manager's changed and stuff. It's when you look at the players that will be available, how many of them have got the heart for a relegation battle? How many of them have got the heart to check their ego to actually be cut out for this? So they're definitely not too good to go down and let's just look at the results. They ain't won in 10 games at the time of recording. So that is a relegation form team. No one is too good to go down. >> Quakers, they're the only team in the league not to win in 2023. It is is is a disaster. And like you said, it's a follow on. It's a follow on. You This is why I wanted Spurs to win the Europa League final. And again, it sounds like sacrilege as a Chelsea fan, but they pose no threat. Man United [laughter] Champions League football threat. I I knew I knew what I saw with Spurs and they they are moribund. They are a disaster. They [laughter] are you any adjective you can find in dictionary for bad is Spurs. And the Dr. Tottenham thing it it started off as a joke. It's real. It's real. You're in bad form, you go see Spurs. Arsenal saw it, right? Arsenal off the back of that dodgy draw against Wolves, they saw Spurs 4-1, 8-2 on aggregate this season. They are a really really bad football team and no, they're not too good to go down cuz you look at the personnel, especially with injuries, you look at that bench. [laughter] That bench is shocking. So yeah, this is a Spurs team that are in serious serious danger and nobody's too good to go down. I've seen I've seen better teams in this go down. It's just a matter of personnel. Well, one of the things that Tito said yesterday was we are lacking the quality to score a goal, we are lacking in the middle to run, and we are lacking at the back to suffer and not concede a goal. So, it's bad at running, defending, [laughter] and attacking. >> This guy after one game right after Arsenal, yeah, started saying, "What's this club's objective? What are these players going to do? What am I going to do?" He's in the absolute trenches. Don't know what for. You know what I mean? You couldn't You couldn't write it. And the only thing that could save Spurs this year is the others just aren't good enough to capitalize. You know, when you look at a good old relegation scrap, the reason why those teams are down there is because wins are scarce across all of them. All it takes is for one of them to win back-to-back games or a draw and a result and and a win, and all of a sudden there's a big bit of daylight because they just continue to lose. West Ham are continuing to lose even though there's a little bit of fight there, but the five-point swing, I just don't know if they've got it in them. In Spurs' defense, which I, as an Arsenal fan, do not like to do, Richarlison, Solanke, Van de Ven, Romero, Xavi Simons, they they are some quality players there. Yeah, have they got the stomach for it? The last time I saw Romero scrapping with with his manager. Like, Van de Ven's not committing his long-term future to the football club. Xavi Simons, there's been flashes, but he's not been absolutely brilliant. Richarlison, I'm sorry, I'm giving up on him. Like, he's not good enough. And so, yeah, they haven't they haven't got the tools to guarantee them getting out this this situation. And when I look at West Ham, yeah, it's a it's a fairly sizable gap right now. But West Ham could look at the United game, should have won that game. Callum Wilson had a chance late on, should have won that. Against Chelsea, two-nil up at Stamford Bridge, they should have got something out that game. And I think they're playing with confidence now. And when I look at their manager, Nuno, he's the man that took Wolves from the Championship to Europe. He's the man that took Forest from the brink of relegation to Europe. The only club it didn't work at, guess what? >> [laughter] >> But they are terrible institutionally. They are terrible. So, yeah, there's every chance they can go down. And if you look at their corresponding fixtures between now and the end of the season, last season when they played those teams, they lost to every one of them. >> And it doesn't matter, right? You know when you go under the lights, though, you know, 12th man. 12th man, mate. Have you seen what happens when they play at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, mate? They're absolutely shocking. And actually, when you look at Spurs, right, they are actually the worst team in the league. >> Yes, they are. I know Wolves statistically, people are making fun of them, worst team ever, are they going to beat the points record of Who was it? Derby? Etc. Etc. Look what they're doing now under Rob Edwards, mate. If they I'll tell you what, it's too late for them, but they're here to They're here to spoil parties and say, "You're coming with us." Burnley, [laughter] look at the fight they came down two against Palace, got back into the game, really unlucky the other day against Brentford, really unlucky. >> Against us. Against you, came back into it, you know what I mean? Fight. And then I look at Forest squad. Forest is weird cuz they're a squad you look at and probably go, "I can't believe you guys are in this position. You >> [clears throat] >> You've actually got good players." I look at those teams around Spurs, and this is where you have to look at who's available for Spurs with the whole 11 out and stuff cuz that does matter. What they actually have available, I think it's only like really Kulusevski to come back, really. What they have available, when I look at like you say West Ham, when I look at Forest, Leeds, and then I go Wolves and um and uh Burnley, I'm like, I think those teams are better than the best Spurs can put out. So, Spurs are going to have to find something in that game at home to Forest. Being honest, I think they will I think they'll get out of it. You think so? Just by Just by proxy, just by I just don't know if I'm looking at West Ham. I think West Ham are the ones that cuz I feel I don't think Forest would would would drop into there. So, you're saying they're not It's not that they're too good to go down. It's poor that >> They'll just get Exactly. Bit like Man United last year. That's why we got I know. Sesko will have a better career than João Pedro. 3 2 1. Could have foreseen that one. Quick. Quick. Who do you reckon? He He to fly >> I'm like the guy in the North Bank with that big Arsenal flag, mate. He has to fly the flag. He has to He has [clears throat] to go with this guy, but if I was to put him on a lie detector test, and I was to say if he really believes that Sesko is going to have a better career than than João Pedro, he he knows [clears throat] he's We've seen it with João Pedro already, right? And I know this conversation, is he a nine, is he a 10? We He's been called a 9.5. This guy can just play football. This guy can just play football. And whether it's the goals that he scores, whether it's the way he brings a teammate in into play, he's just a a top-quality footballer. And what's going to kind of determine his success is whether we can find the right position and right players around him, but in terms of just a footballer, there's not really a comparison. I