VAR From Perfect: How to Fix the System Now
Former EPL Referee Mark Halsey and former FIFA referee Christina Unkel join the pod to discuss how to fix VAR immediately. We're also joined by Fabrizio Romano for all the latest rumours on the January Transfer Window.
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are happy hello and welcome to the debrief live I'm anger Scott we have a podcast that is overflowing with topics and guests this week our transfer Guru for Brito Romano has the latest on manchest United's hunt for a center back how the Premier League's top six May halt newcastle's rise and where will Spurs turn for reinforcements as their number of injuries climb also we've traveled to Sweden to get an exclusive interview with tottenham's dejan kulesi we've taken him back to where it all started to the club that's as difficult to pronounce as an Icelandic volcano but our main focus today is on something that has become vle in the Premier League you can insert as many jokes as you want but none of them is funny or indeed original anymore and nor is the V system itself funny that is we are asking why is V so far from perfect and what's next for the troubled technology my right-hand man Ben Jacobs has just worken up from his jet lag Slumber in Miami ahead of his latest soccer X conference good morning to you Ben good morning it's too early here in Miami for all of those puns in the spake of space of the opening two minutes the show takes me hours to write them of course uh but if we are talking V we need to talk to officials people who understand the game the technology and certainly have a view on where it's going right or wrong so we go State side again and welcome back to the debrief FIFA referee Christina Uncle Christina I think you are based in Florida as well so you're not very far from Ben I'm not far from Ben I'm going to say Ben it's not that early it's almost nine o'clock local time but I'll give it to you because I know you just traveled in he did just uh yeah just stepped off a flight and also with us today is the former premier league and FIFA referee Mark Housey a man with plenty of opinions about the current state of the refereeing scene and Mark no longer in the UK just taking early retirements out in Spain I see southern Spain that the sun is shining on the o e Costa guys and days absolutely glorious here today well sorry to drag you inside to talk to us but we have a very important topic to talk about I let's come to you mark first in your opinion what is wrong with v uh listen I think you know it's been in the Premier League now for four to five seasons um the ifap protocol is in place um and I think it needs now a total reform because it's not been changed in in four to five years now I think if we go back to in its early early days in the Premier League um the pgml were're not following the protocol laid down by by ifab whereas V were making the onfield decisions when there when there was a a review um the V were making a decisions whether it was a penalty not a penalty was it a send off was it not a sendoff now we know in the protocol the referees have to make that decision they have to the V has to recommend a review for the referee to go and make that final decision so it all started going wrong there for me in in in the UK that never happened around the world never I mean my good friend Peter brought it brought the V into the M pet Walton that is yeah pet Peter Walton yeah um and done a very good job now I think as well I think the training education's got to be better I think at present there's far I mean obviously I don't know if the guys see lot watch a lot of the Premier League in in in Florida I might imagine they do I think at present there's far too many inconsistencies with recognition of of of challenges hand balls when to come in when not to come in I think there's there's there's a lack of confidence and that comes with the training education the leadership and direction of of what's going on now and I and I think that also with that brings that that the guys don't know when to come in and they don't know when not to come in and also I think we've got a massive problem not just not just in in the in the Premier League I think around the world with with with hand ball you know has to be a deliberate act the arms have to be in a a natural or unnatural they've got to decide now for me I don't think the current referees in the Premier League know what natural and unnatural is because it it's there's so many different phases of play where your arms are in a natural position and I I don't think that we we've they've had enough training education on natural and unnatural and for me the best people to come in and train our officials is ex-managers coaches or players they have to have something to do with it and also what is a poor bad challenge is what is not a bad Challenge and and I've seen many hand balls and we've seen hand balls given recently you're thinking that's not deliberate his arms are in a natural position position for that phase of play and that's the problem we're getting and that's where we're getting inconsistencies I mean I saw a game this weekend was it Brighton where the Sheffield United players clearly he's clearly made made himself moved his arm towards the the ball and no no no no review now for me that is a clear and obvious error because the he's turned his back he's pushed his arm towards the ball for me that is where V should come in and recommend a review and then on another week it will be it will be uh um recommended for review so we're having so many inconsistencies with so many things and also with sub subjective decisions you know is it a red card is it not a red card and I still feel we there's still a lot more more training education regarding challenges what is a what is a serious Foul Play challenge what is a Reus challenge I mean we've seen I mean in the Tottenham Tottenham Chelsea game um you know we saw a challenge in in uh and is it and doggy I think the first challenge where he's got a yellow card I think was on uh was it on um Ryan Sterling uh and you look at that and you think that that met the criteria for me for ser St play so why haven't V come and got involved because if everybody is saying that it's a that it's a poor challenge it should have been a red card everybody can't be wrong can they so I think there is a big inconsistency a lack of training education leadership and Direction on on on V Christina for you um it what is what are your doubts about V at the moment and the way it's being officiated not just in the Premier League but around the world yes so I was part of when Major League Soccer implemented in one of the first leagues in the world to implement V under the guidance of Howard web himself specifically and it it was we were part of that first group that started the process and you know I think Mark H it on the head a bit when it comes down to training protocol systems I personally don't think V in how it is drafted and created there's a couple of minor tweaks I would like to do to it is in and of itself broken right it's essentially in the application of how it's being done and having the benefit and the doubt I covered Champions League um Europa League C I work in Major League Soccer you know nwsl now has it the women's professional soccer league and uh now I get pulled into to talk about quite a bit about Premier League so I've been able to see how V is implemented across across the world collectively and it really really really comes down to that um component of ensuring that the application in and of itself is systemic and follows the process I know when Howard trained us um everyone was essentially creating the V process as we went I think the the protocol changed three or four times during that you know year leading into the application or the implementation of v um and so for me it is a very systemic approach on how you do it in order to ensure we don't have inconsistent recommendations down around subjective plays and this is just a uh it's a perfect storm of what's occurring right now we had V implemented uh as I heard Mark you know maybe we they didn't follow specifically the trading protocol and they went a little bit outside of that protocol and it's important to stay in there so from a legal perspective if we're looking down from a very more of a Judicial perspective right you know here at least in the States you know it's kind of come closer to like criminal criminal procedure you know beyond a reasonable doubt meaning 99.9% this is incorrect and that's the standard and it's a high high standard and everything we that we need to check AP you know clear the AP to make sure there's no fouls leading to it all of those things it requires that mindset we can't just referee or V off a fi it actually has to follow a system and if that wasn't introduced if that wasn't I I when I was being trained on V it drove me crazy how systemic we were and the words we had to use right check complete or reset or possible losss side or possible foul uh you know those types of words that we had to use or is the AP checked and now when I've heard the audio systems around the world I understand why we had to emphasize those words because it ensured that we didn't have the misstep that we had in Liverpool right when we came down to processes and saying you know the decision on the field is this let's open up the review we're now starting from the beginning of the AP and checking two or three other incidents prior to it so I do really think that the s v in and of itself isn't broken the philosophy is not broken um the fundamentals aren't broken it's essentially ensuring that there is a painstaking attention to detail and teaching that protocol and ensuring and if we're going to be SP speaking specifically about the Premier League you know I I I I give a lot to Howard Webb for stepping into the middle of that it's like any coach stepping into a a training into a new team you've inh inherited the players that you've had and now not only do you have to retrain your entire team you have to retrain any hesitancy or push back they have from saying we've been doing this correct so it's in complete philosophy mindset change as well as those training change and then handling is just a completely different piece that's adding to this perfect storm I mean you should correct Christine has spot on I mean how has got a massive job over here you know the Premier League is not the MLS so it's tot totally different you're in the spotlight and I I just feel that we've got to be careful because I I I think that sometimes in where where we are I don't know if you see it Christina but I I think the referees are relying on on V they're not they're not forgetting about VR they're not refereeing what's in front of them and making that and going out and making those important decisions and sometimes I also feel that that the the vs are are re refereeing game re refereeing the games and we we you know say we've got like you said we've got to get that philosophy across that they're not there it's there for the clear and obvious errors that's what V is there for and we got to be careful we don't go too far the other way um so yeah I think uh it's for me V is is is is excellent it's here to stay and we got to recognize that but we've got to we've got to get it right you know because it's it's causing so much confusion in in in the UK I mean I I watch the you know the men's World Cup the Women's World Cup and it run it run so smoothly yes I understand we've got the world's best officials at the games but it it we just didn't have that problem we just didn't have the problem that we see in the Premier League I think Marcio poino summed it up well and you've both touched upon it when he said that he trusts in the car but not at the moment in the driver and obviously that plays to Christina's point about Education and Training being needed and at the moment my feeling Christina and Mark feel free to touch upon this as well is that referee CV as a safety net they allow the play to continue they don't want to stop it because then what you're doing is preventing the consequence from manifesting and then ultimately V can tidy it up V can look at it so if there's any doubt what you do is let everything run on and that can add delays that can add contention and it can take the authority and control away from the referee of course with things like semi-automatic off sides you could be in a situation where if you are confident in the technology you get a little notification you do stop the play you never know the consequences in that particular situation and then as a result you don't have as much of the debate but of course the flip side of that is that people will always say why didn't you let it run on we want to know whether the player would have scored and then we want to analyze the goal and I think when we've seen a lack of v in leag cup for example we've seen the same criticism so that's the irony in all of this when V is over forensic it's problematic and authorities taken away from the officials when you don't V people turn around and say that was an awful game by the officials and that only illustrates the fact that with v we are getting improved decisions so Christina at first and then Mark how do we get a situation where officials on field retain their Authority and control and are not using v as a safety n oh no worries no worries B going to your question I mean it's the it's the essence of and I hope this this analogy plays well over over there as well is having your cake and eating it too to that extent right you know everybody wants to wants V but then they don't want V and then they want V in these instances and we can't rely upon when someone subjective whims when they are favoring a team and would have wanted to see that we have to do it from a very neutral standpoint that being said I would say that the mindset and the mentality of the majority of officials at least here domestic State side and myself included is that you are officiating as if the system doesn't exist when it comes to making a decision um like I said I will re I will you know hold on to that being here domestic in the United States that we are officiating as if the system didn't exist except the only things we are tweaking is essentially when it comes to protocol from an assistant referee holding down their flag when they have an offside decision that communication is already happening between the officials saying I have offside you know delaying delaying delaying to play out that play So we had an example for example in nwsl keeper hot touches the ball out outside the kind of the penalty area scenario and it was a scenario where the officials without V would not have been able to make that decision on the field due to angles um the way the ball was played and not being in line from the assisted referee position meaning just it was catching up to Pace um and they officiated is without but in the back of the mind it's also that concept saying thank God we could not see that based upon this play in the context but we do know that if there is something that is clear and obvious ER V will have it but the play continues so you know everyone's of I I've gotten a lot of these kinds of comments of saying you know referees use V as a as a crutch you know they're relying too much on the system no no no they're just officiating as they should be officiating and making those decisions knowing that in the worst case scenario V is in the back end we're not relying upon it we're not saying we're not making a decision no decision is a decision in and of itself right so every time you make a decision or not make a decision it's a decision um so when it comes to the officials relying on it thinking it's a crutch you know are concerned about it saying Etc no V will make it make the decision on it that's not the mindset and that's not the philosophy of how an official should be officiating with the V protocol instead you are officiating you are in charge of the game any recommendation sound is still just keyword a recommendation from the V obviously everyone's like every time they go to the monitor they come out well yeah that's kind of the whole point if you're recommending something down it should be a clear and obvious evid error and there should be very clear evidence to that that but I know at least here domestic States side of Major League Soccer there's times where there are improper V recommendations and those are and those are acted upon in the sense of not taking that recommendation so I Teeter on that because I know many people aren't in the mindsets of the refs and don't know how we're approaching and using it Mark I'm not sure if there's any difference over there for you over the pond but here domestically V isn't a crutch it's more for knowing there's just that backup system if it's needed but to hear check complete in your ear is a nice hearing from a referee meaning you got the decision correct or at least not clearly wrong I would tell people I don't get clear wrong errors I might get an error but I don't do clearly wrong errors I used to like that little voice in my ear when I was refereeing so mark You're you spot on seen it on the TV you got that right oh great I can carry on and don't have to worry but no I think you spot on um I think I think there is a I think there is a bit of a problem here where I think referees do rely on on the v um they're not they're not making that decision and you and I think you we had we had the problem um a couple of weeks ago last week at Newcastle Newcastle Arsenal where we had to obviously there was massive Pro you know there's three there was three three checks going on with was the ball out of play was it offside or was it was it a foul now you know I think we we've got to make sure we've got enough cameras so we get that definitive angle so we can make that call they they didn't they couldn't make the call on on the goal they weren obviously sorry the ball out of play was it out of play was it not out of play didn't have the camera angle was it offside it was one of those where they couldn't they didn't have the correct camera angle to see if it was offside or not offside and then obviously it came down to to the the hands on the back a lot of people would say it was a foul a lot of people say it it wasn't a foul so for me that's subjective so you know I know a lot of people were arguing saying the VR should have got involved and recommending the review to the referee had the referee gone over he POS possibly would disallowed the goal but that was a subject that was subjective so I I'm with that with that that that the VR doesn't get involved and and Christina is absolutely right we they we only want them to get involved when it's an absolute howler that that's what it's for I mean we foot football's football's been going for hundreds of hundreds of years and all of a sudden you know we've come we're into a different era now where V is where people's perception is it's ruining the game of football especially here in in England Christina they they they think it's ruining the game but for me I think it's a good tool you know because there was a few times when I refereed where I I missed a port I missed a really poor challenge at Wigan against Newcastle in the Premier League I think it was hereda on on McMan and you know if I had V that day I know V would have got involved and said Mark you need to go and look at this and I know straight away yeah I would have only need needed one look it have been and it been a red card but what what what what I think we need to look at as well is that when they when they view these these challenges in the in the Premier League I if you've seen it Christina but as soon as they go to the screen it's there in slow motion it's there in sorry in Stills it's there in Stills and we know what Stills put into your mind straight as soon as you see the still picture you think God that's a shocking tackle but I think we need to make these decisions and look at these decisions in in real time in in in real time and I think we need t