Man City’s Uncertain Future, Fans Demand Punishment & Pep’s Legacy Tainted | The Overlap Fan Debate

The Overlap

Manchester City's case, punishment and the fight over Premier League fairness

The panel debates Manchester City's case after the independent commission's findings, covering appeals, possible points deductions, relegation or expulsion, and whether trophies or Pep Guardiola's legacy should be affected. Fans also argue over state ownership and whether PSR and revenue-based rules protect or entrench the biggest clubs. The consensus is that City and their owners must face serious consequences, but there is no agreement on how far those consequences should reach.

Jamie Carragher, Stuart Pearce and football fans come together for a passionate Overlap Fan Debate, brought to you by Sky Bet, to discuss Manchester City’s case and what happens next. From potential points deductions and relegation to questions over the club’s ownership, the panel debate what a fair punishment could look like. City fans share their perspective, rival supporters explain their frustrations, and the discussion turns to Pep Guardiola’s legacy and the reception awaiting City at Anfield. What do you think should happen next? Let us know in the comments. 00:00 - Intro 02:29 - City Charges 14:47 - What Punishment Is Fair 21:50 - Games Gone, Games Back 32:10 - Liverpool Hurt by City Case 45:50 - Pep vs Sir Alex Debate 58:28 - Newcastle Perspective on Fairness 01:08:05 - Chelsea Sanctions Debate 01:17:11 - Brighton Model vs Rules 01:24:12 - Hull Survival 01:30:10 - Leeds' Lessons on Spending SUBSCRIBE TO THE CHANNEL HERE https://www.youtube.com/c/theoverlap STICK TO UNITED WITH WAYNE ROONEY ON THE UNITED STAND https://www.youtube.com/@UnitedStand/videos JOIN THE OVERLAP WHATSAPP CHANNEL HERE https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VbC3WQvAYlUCoCqZgA45 SUBSCRIBE TO THE OVERLAP BREAKDOWN CHANNEL HERE https://www.youtube.com/@TheOverlapBreakdown SUBSCRIBE TO THE OVERLAP NEWSLETTER https://substack.com/@theoverlapnewsletter SUBSCRIBE TO IT WAS WHAT IT WAS PATREON Join here ➡️ www.patreon.com/itwas SUBSCRIBE TO STICK TO RUGBY HERE https://www.youtube.com/@TheOverlapRugby SUBSCRIBE TO THE STICK TO CRICKET CHANNEL HERE https://www.youtube.com/@TheOverlapCricket?subconfirmation=1 FOLLOW STICK TO CRICKET ON SOCIAL 👇🏏 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/sticktocricket/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61577370443364 TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@sticktocricket X - https://x.com/StickToCricket LISTEN TO OUR PODCASTS Stick to Football - https://tr.ee/JI6l3Dj-4O The Overlap - https://tr.ee/h07F3Fsuh3 It Was What It Was - https://podfollow.com/1745066482…

Transcript

I I I would like to believe them as I say. >> Do you believe them? >> Come on. >> That's enough. [laughter] >> That game's a sham. This season's a sham. You know, how long is this allowed to go on for if City win the league this season? What are we meant to all think about that? >> Every penny they spend from this point on is going to be so overly scrutinized. >> What ownership group are worse? The Glazers or the group that own Man City? There's a strong likelihood that something has gone [laughter] astray. You had a lot of fans saying, "Well, why why don't we just cheat? Why don't we find a way to artificially inflate all this?" Because up until literally a week and a half ago when that [music] tweet dropped, there had never been a serious consequence to any team breaking the rules. >> We drew two wall at Stanford Bridge and we're walking out going, "We can't be dropping points like this. We cannot be [clears throat] [music] >> Hello and welcome back to the Fan Debate brought to you by Sky Bet. I'm pleased to welcome Stuart Pierce onto this sofa for [music] his debut on the show and as well as our loyal supporters as well. And we've got Martin Ziegler back on the show because we know it's going to be hotly debated this one uh because of what's happened the last couple of weeks. Uh Stuart, I want to start with you just about what you've been doing in the international break and you were over in Croatia. What did you make of the England performance? Uh well, over the the three games that I've seen at the moment, I thought that the Spain game, aside from the result, was a fantastic game of football. Really exciting. And I think they needed that at Wembley after the hangover of the World Cup and whatever. Um the Cro needed a result and needed a win to be fair in Czech Republic and got that. And then the seven niler, well, I didn't see that coming. >> Croatia were awful, but you can't take it away from England. We got cutting edge at the moment at the front end of the team. And uh it was a brilliant game to watch. >> Yeah, they were fantastic. But the international break is not normally the the busiest or the most exciting uh for a lot of football fans. But Martin, has this been one of the busiest international breaks you can remember for obvious reasons. [laughter] >> Yeah, I've uh it's h certainly the bus the busiest I've ever had because I always look forward to international break. You know, things are going to quieten down on on the weekly sort of Premier League V front, etc. But yeah, this has been incredibly busy because of uh Manchester City and what the Premier League's independent commission has has published. >> Okay, M you've just mentioned that that's what we're obviously going to start with Manchester City, we've I think everybody feels like in the country's been waiting for a verdict on this and I think Manchester City people as well, you know, it's been hanging around for so long with the Premier League now. Uh where are we up to right now? There's been so much. Listen, it's in the papers every day. Everyone is speaking about it on social media, but how's this sort of story? It feels like every couple of days there's a new thread to the story. Where are we right now? >> So, I think now we're in a position where so last Tuesday the independent commission's report was published and found guilty of of more than a hundred charges and uh we haven't got a sanction now. So I think we'll have a process where there there will be 12 weeks in which the appeal must take place under Premier League rules and then a finding [clears throat] after that within 30 days. So that takes you sort middle of January. I think we'll then probably have the sanctions hearing then if the appeal fails or if if if [laughter] uh I mean appeal some of the charges could be proved some could be upheld. They all could all be upheld but what hap what whatever happens if there are charges proven then we'll have a sanctions hearing after that there could be another appeal against that again within 30 days uh within 12 weeks and then 30 days after that so that will take us up to April so we should have this done and dusted before the end of the season but we are now in a sort of holding pattern where there's things stories coming out uh a lot of the media including myself examining ing all the evidence and the claims and counter claims and I think we'll that will continue going for a bit but in terms of the actual process um we we are now in a bit of a holding pattern until we get the outcome of the appeal. >> Stuart how do you feel about it? You're you've got links to Manchester City strong lynch player manager there. How did you feel when the announcement came out? Um for me my first emotion disappointment for football because you know I sort of come through the non-league system sort of thing where I don't know there was a freshness about it and then all of a sudden we seem to in football nowadays talking about things that like the Manchester City situation like VAR we're talking about stuff that isn't football related. It is but it isn't if you know what I mean. And I find I think the fans are the ones who are getting shortch changed in all of this. Um I hope it's resolved quicker than my expectation. I know you you're putting time dates on it and we're thinking maybe by January everything will be resolved. I'm not so sure. I think this could run and run and run. Uh I hope I'm wrong. that the Premier League need to to put down almost an iron fist here and and send a message out to all the other clubs as well as Manchester City if they think they've wronged and and got it horribly wrong. So, and and what the punishment will be. I I wouldn't like to be one one of the people making a judgment on the panel to say what is a fit and proper punishment for this situation. I think if there's going to be a massive fine, I'd like to see um the money go to good, maybe go into grassroots football and not just be hovered up somewhere at the Premier League. I'd love to see that to see the good of the game, something good come out of it to be quite honest with you. But >> whether there's a demotion through the leagues, it could be absolutely anything, you know, and I'm almost watching with interest as somebody that when I managed at Man City, we didn't have a bean. We didn't own the ground. We didn't own the club shop. Uh my first major decision I had to make as manager was to sell Shawn Wright Phillips otherwise the club go bust. It's incredible that the journey the club have been on and as that in the process as we speak going in full circle. Time will tell. >> Well, I think we were all waiting with baited breath to get Luke on this show. Uh but Luke, would you believe is on holiday >> as every other Manchester City supporter. we got in touch with to try and come on the show. So big respect to uh to Nobins who's come on the show, Manchester City fan. Uh as I said a lot didn't want to come on and uh welcome on on your on your debut and what a debut in a tough place this is going [laughter] to be. Uh give us the the Manchester City fan perspective. I mean it feels like the world's against you. That's what you'll feel everybody every day. It's just pure negativity. What's going to happen to your beloved club? Uh, how are you feeling? >> Uh, yeah, it's it's really challenging. I would have loved the debut to be a conversation about Enzo Moresca's tactics at City. Obviously, that's not the case. Conflicted, I think lots of City fans are. We can't even come to a a uniform consensus as to how we should feel. Uh, you've got your CEO, your chairman of your club saying, "We are innocent. We have this irrefutable evidence." As a fan, you want to believe them. You want to think that they are being honest there because worst case scenario is they aren't. and then obviously the sanctions. But when you have, as Martin was outlining earlier, this damning, scathing um official judgment that's come out and if you read the the language in it is is incredibly scathing. It's damage. It's damning. It's using words like concocted, like sham. um it's hard to to rationalize our leadership saying we've done nothing wrong, we're fine versus this official rhetoric from the uh independent commission. So I I would like to believe them as I say. >> Do you believe them? >> Come on. >> Best known. [laughter] >> Um of course he does. I I think that there's there's there's a strong likelihood that something has gone astray [laughter] and that some there has been some wrongdoing. Of course, I will wait until every single appeal process has happened before reaching a an ultimate conclusion. But right now, the latest official document is that they have been found guilty. So, you have to treat that decision with the correct amount of weight. >> Can I ask you a question if you don't mind? What would be if you were meeting out a punishment to Manchester City, what would be the worst case scenario from your point of view and what would be the best case scenario punishment wise? >> Well, like worst case scenario is like the club ceases to exist in some sort of existential crisis. I don't think that that's reasonable though. So a punishment which is terrible but also reasonable probably like relegation to somewhere like league 2 or even like non-league as well or or the the national league. Sorry. I know lots of people have been saying that um best case scenario is a slap on the wrist and everyone forgets about it. [laughter] >> But I think what you've just said there and that's why I totally get it because all the other fans are nodding their heads laughing at the situation that you're in. But almost every fan out here, I'm sure, would say exactly the same as you would. Your football club is your family. You defend them to the hilt. You're going to have to be absolutely 100% guilty before you absolutely go, "Okay, fair enough. Fair cop." Uh, so I I totally get that and understand it from a fan's perspective. But when you look at the people involved, where's your frustration come about the situation that you find? Who you're actually looking at and thinking this is this is you. this is this is you know you've put us in this position. >> So just on that last point you were saying I do think it's important to distinguish between a a fan choosing to continue to support the club versus continuing to support the higherups and the people in charge because the two are very very different things like city existed long before these people broke these rules. It will continue to exist after so there is a distinction that I do want to make between the two. Um, on that note, I think that you would have to say that the people responsible have to be the ones who City fans, in my opinion, should be directing their frustrations towards. It's not it's not the fans fault. It's not the fault of the players. Like Ellie Anderson wasn't in these commercial meetings and making these uh decisions which as things stand have found City guilty of breaking all these rules. So, it's got to be the people who had the final say or it's the people who knew or ought to have known. And I suppose that if the independent commission does name anyone directly, if it does address anyone directly, then you would like to think that those heads are are going to roll and they have to be the ones to have that accountability. >> Yeah. What you've said, I think I've said that in the last week or so. This is this is not almost Manchester City the club. This is the owners. you you'll have diff you've had different owners before, you'll have different owners after. It's not the players as such. They they've just come in, not the supporters. Do you think it's different with Pep? And and the reason I say that is because from my own experience as a player, you don't really see the the owner or the CEO. You might see them once every few months after a game, if you've won a big game, but the managers in contact with them normally, Stuart, you'd know that probably three or four times a day. You're on the phone to the CEO, aren't you? So would would would would that be different in your eyes the way you you look at the players differently than maybe the manager because we do know about Manini's situation and I I did have to sm laugh at Manini's press conference where literally just not to do with me that was years ago it was their [laughter] problem. Do do you see it differently for Pep? >> The suggestion being that he's like got some sort of accountability. Did you mean >> what I'm saying is I think he's he's more I think when I say like the players I think probably just have they just signed the contract but Pep actually being not so much like he's involved in the commercial deals but the fact that he's he's he's involved with those people sort of four or five times a day >> daily I I just I just struggle to think would he really believe them fully 100% what they're saying after what come out about Manini and and different things actually I just didn't know if he that changed it for Uh, not for me. No, I think he's perfectly I think he was and still is perfectly well within his rights to believe his higherups when he's told that. Um, again, if we read the independent commission's reporting, this started in was it the '0910 season, so way before Guadiola was city manager and had been going way up way before he arrived. So, no, I I don't really think that like cuz I have seen people argue that, you know, should he have known better? should he have asked these questions and that sort of thing. But I don't think it's his responsibility to continually ask these questions. I think that he's perfectly well within within his right to go, well, I'm the manager. It's just my job to get results on the pitch. You tell me what my budget is and then I'll go out and spend it um accordingly. So, I don't really think that I personally want to associate like Guadiola with that conversation. >> There's a lot of talk of Man City going to Anfield and there going to be this atmosphere and what Liverpool fans are going to be chanting. They're going to have banners. What do you think Manchester City supporters will be like going there? Will it almost you know again us against the world? Will they have a banner? Will they have a you know >> non-stop none from from minute zero through to 90? >> Yeah. >> Um no it will I think it will be business as usual to the large to the largest extent. I don't think there's going to be like a protest or anything like that from City fans. I think that we are still going to turn up. We're still going to back the players on the pitch. We're still going to back the team. We're going to want them to do well like any other football fan would do. So, of course, every other, it's not just Liverpool, it'll be every single club this season, whether they're coming to the Etihad or whether we're going to them. I mean, we've already had these like, you know, chance of like cheats and whatnot for like three and a half years now. That's just going to uh become exponentially worse. But I think that for the most part, it will just be business as usual. And again, it's this distinction between the players haven't done anything wrong. If wrong has been done, it is by the people behind the scenes. I >> I think the problem Man City going to have this season, if you just think of this season of Mesa and the players, you're top of the league right now, so the best team in the league early on the season. I just find it very difficult for just to keep that going cuz I think every away game you go to is going to be the best atmosphere in that stadium that season or very close to it because I think everyone's just sort of baying for blood. But the other supporters here, what do we think is a realistic or a fair punishment for Manchester City? Because it's obviously all the fans say, you know, your clubs have been involved and been hurt by what's happened at Manchester City. What do you think's fair? What do we think's right? >> I think they've got to be out of the league because they've cheated over quite an extended period and been found guilty. Obviously, there's subject to the appeal. Man City are denying it. But if they are found guilty and the appeal fails, well, they've what is it over 900 million pounds that they've artificially inflated to be able to create this dynasty. There's no way that they can stay in the lake for me. There's no way. >> I've changed my mind on the expulsion thing. When I initially read the story when it came out, I thought the most realistic possibility was they're just going to slap a huge fine on them in a points deduction. But once you sit and you read the Premier League's write up of this, the strength of the language they use, it does feel massively like they're laying the groundwork to do like an we've never seen a team be expelled from the Premier League before. And it does feel like that's the direction they're going for. That's probably what they're going to push for, which is the implications of which is just bizarre. >> Yeah, >> it needs to be so bad that nobody does it again. I mean, I don't know what that is, but it needs to be so bad that when anyone thinks of breaching the rules again, they think, "Oh, we don't want that. That's where it needs to be at." And because it was so many years of gaining an advantage, if they did just go down first of all at the Championship going to want them and what club moves on or doesn't get promoted because of that, that's a whole butterfly effect. But if you go down, you can just come straight back up. You might still win a league title before Manchester United do again. So, it has to be over a period of time. and so bad that no other club does it again. I think >> Quu, >> I feel like glass houses right now. I don't want to throw too. [laughter] >> Yeah, I I I [clears throat] agree. Um, they've obviously undermined and people don't like it, but football's a religion in this country and they've undermined the sanctity of the best export in this country and so they have to be punished with the biggest kind of punishment, not just a fine because we know how deep the pockets of the owners are, but also on the pitch. The reason why we love football is this meritocracy and Man City in terms of what they've done with the inflated funds have kind of killed the illusion of football being fair in this country. So I agree points deduction the the trophies is the most interesting conversation because obviously when it first came out the the tribalistic aspect of fans they're talking about give us our trophies give us this. I don't think that works. um you can maybe like null and void those seasons but to give those trophies to other clubs I don't think works in terms of football's an emotional game we've seen the games happen already May United I don't think you'll feel vindicated with winning the trophy in 2012 or would you >> I wouldn't do you know what do you know what it is for me more is what is the right punishment for when your whole memory of football essentially for me I mean it's not everything but when the breaches started it was 2009 I was 8 years old at that time so I'm like everything that I remember from my footballing memory is tainted now because it was illegitimate. So that Aguero moment, okay, yeah, it was a loss and that's awful. Probably the first time I cried at a football game if I'm going to be completely honest with you. Not that I do that that often, although Man United >> as a Man United. >> Yeah, it it can [laughter] bring me to tears a lot. But I'm like, that's a memory. It's an emotion. It's a feeling. We lost. It's awful, but it's your footballing memory. And it's like now I look back on that and I'm like, how am I supposed to feel about that now? Because it wasn't legit. M >> subject to appeal. >> Martin, I want to come to you. Man City have lodged your appeal and a