Man City guilty of arranging 'sham' contracts and inflating income by £830m | Paper Talk
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Transcript
Mhm. >> Hey. time now for Paper [music] Talk here on Sky Sports News bringing you a first look at the sports stories in the morning's newspapers, [music] which are dominated by one thing and one thing only. Joining us tonight here in the studio Miguel Delaney, chief [music] football writer for The Independent, and also Henry Winter from the Football Boardroom podcast, and Sam Dean, football writer at The Daily Telegraph. [music] Good to see you all. We will speak to you all in depth in just a moment, but [music] let's look through a few of the papers as we have them. So, this is the back of the mail. City's [music] 900 million pound sham in blistering statement. Premier League reveal club used fake sponsorship deals to boost [music] income, but they incredibly claim they are surprised at panel's opinion. Also there, >> [music] >> um, Anthony Gordon on the scoresheet for England as they win in Prague in the Nations League. Also in The Times, again they focus on that huge figure, 900 million pounds. "Scared [music] of City's financial breaches laid bare as guilty verdict published. Club used sham contracts [music] to inflate revenues and reduce costs." There's that word again. Uh, "Important as wins important as they gave [music] false evidence they knew to be untrue." And a word on Ferran Soriano, chief executive vows to appeal Premier League's >> [music] >> conspiracy theory. And then as again you can see, uh, Trent Alexander-Arnold who assisted, uh, for the goal [music] there with Anthony Gordon. In The Express, "Sham dunk. City left reeling as Premier League reveals shocking details of guilty verdicts including bogus [music] deals to disguise 900 million pounds in secret funding." And then again, the picture of Anthony [music] Gordon. Uh, let's have a little look at The Mirror. "Official Manchester City guilty. Shameless. >> [music] >> 115 Premier League charges. Chance broke nearly all of them. Sham contracts." Again that phrase. And now "Innocent." In inverted commas, "City have just 72 hours to appeal the decision." And uh, finally in the Telegraph, uh City face expulsion over 1 billion pounds [music] cheating scandal. Right. Uh okay, well, we know what we're going to talk about over the next half an hour or so. Uh Miguel, Sam, and Henry, welcome along. Um so, I mean, this story has seriously escalated in the last 24 hours or so. I'll come to you first, Miguel. Um we we knew, obviously given what had happened before and David Ornstein originally breaking this story a few days ago, that we were getting towards the end game, but it really feels that we've accelerated, doesn't it? >> Yeah, I mean, uh escalation, acceleration are absolutely the words, cuz look, you know, on Friday, after David broke the story, I think there was shock in football at how comprehensive the Premier League's victory was. And while that might have initially felt like it would have kind of maybe just softened the eventual decision coming out, the decision was actually just absolutely jaw-dropping. Uh I've never read a legal document and obviously football reporting these days involves reading a lot of legal documents. I've never seen language like that. The word The word sham used eight times. And it's also it's well, look, after an 8-year build-up, an 8-year wait, all of the debate, the speculation, the uncertainty, to have it in black and white, the scale of this. And also given that let's remember, this is an outcome, a decision. Yes, it's pending appeal, but we can talk kind of quite openly now. >> Mhm. >> And I would say what I had in black and white was I'd go so far as saying the biggest scandal in certainly in world club football. I think the only story actually comparable to it is maybe Qatar and Russia getting the World Cups in 2018, 2022. And like this obviously has similar geopolitical dimensions given the very decision today. Had it spoke about how they had to speak to experts on Abu Dhabi governance and politics, but that is the scale we're talking about. >> Mhm. But we're we're used to hyperbole in in sport. It's It's part of, you know, what gives us the ups and downs in the roller coaster. Um Sam, if I if I come to you and and and your paper that that the Telegraph, City face expulsion over 1 billion pound cheating scandal. We'll come to potential sanctions in a bit, but again, as as Miguel says, this word sham. I mean, what was the most shocking element for you about this and particularly given that this is an official document, the language that's used to explain the decision that's been reached? >> Yeah, I I would agree with Miguel wholeheartedly about the language and the use of that word sham and the absolutely emphatic nature of the whole document. I think, as Miguel said before, that legal language is generally kind of couched in formality um and almost coldness, but there's none of that in this commission's finding at all. And actually, as journalists, we we're used to using words to make things sound as exciting as possible. And there are many elements of the Premier League statement and the commission which would happily be written by a journalist in that they're very uh engaging and exciting to read at some points, which sounds remarkable given what we're talking about, the nature of it and its sort of fiddly nature and and the financial element of it, but it it truly is an extraordinary story. And I mean, for example, you showed the back page of the mirror before and the the sub-headline called them the giants. But this goes back before that. They weren't giants. They're only giants of English football because of nine years, we now know, of systematic cheating. So all the sort of foundational rules upon which the Premier League has been built for the past decade or more have now been completely shaken, if not totally crumbled. So this is just a story so big that it's quite hard to wrap our heads around and the consequences of it, as we know, are going to be incredibly um difficult to know for a while. The process is going to go on. Um we'll come I'm sure we'll come on to talk about potential sanctions. Who knows how long this will take and how far-reaching it will be, but I think at this point we cannot overestimate the size of this and and what it means for football in Europe, in England, in the world, and also as Miguel Hins at potentially also geopolitics. There are there are there are governmental elements to this, too. This goes so far beyond what we're used to seeing on the football pitch. >> Yeah, we'll we'll get into some of that in a moment. I think one of one of the reasons that perhaps this is having this seismic impact that it is is that from a place of relative stasis. Yes, it was a significant story on Friday, of course, but now it feels like well, the Premier League have gone emphatically one way and and Henry it feels like Manchester City have gone emphatically the other. Ferran Soriano is either saying nothing or he's got this video address that's been shared with staff. And in The Times, we see actually a little snapshot of Ferran Soriano, City's uh chief executive, speaking to staff in a video message that we got hold of uh in here at at Sky Sports News. Uh is is this, Henry, the the kind of the final throws of the battle and them sort of going down all guns blazing essentially? How how do you read their response? >> Uh defiance. Deny, deny, delay, delay. I think it's embarrassing for the club. I mean, Manchester City were around in the '70s. They had a good team in the '70s. They're not completely a new phenomenon. So, you know, this is one of the the the great historic uh clubs of this nation. And it is embarrassing what the owners are doing. Ferran Soriano, fit and proper person? I think the regulator might actually have to have a a look at that. Maybe we needed the regulator earlier. I think it's embarrassing from the owners. I think they're letting their players and their coach Enzo Maresca down because they are walking into what will will an absolute bear pit at Anfield in their next game with Liverpool fans quite rightly voicing the anger of so many people. And Manchester City are still actually playing when this has been thrown against them. I think that I think it's extraordinary. It's so damaging for for the Premier League, for its reputation around the world, that Manchester City will continue to play. Do we have a title race? Are there two teams in it or just Arsenal? How's it going to affect the bottom of the table? We can't have a table and a team going through the season having had this thrown at them by an independent commission, by three well-respected judges. We don't know who the judges are, but they are known to be absolutely elite. We don't know their names, but we know that they are very much at the top of the range. So, it is so damaging and I just find it so sad that a club like Manchester City, and we have to differentiate the club to the owners here. This is on the owners. And this is on the advice that they're getting, the fact that they're not reading the room, they're not looking at the anger throughout the sport around the world towards Manchester City. If you're a kid nowadays, you really want to put your Manchester City shirt on and go to to to school with it on? Maybe there'll be a little bit of defiance, and City fans have been defiant before. We've seen them fight their way up from the third tier before. They've got that in them, and I'm sure they will attack that process and that journey. But the owners need to start on this road to redemption as quickly as they can. Ferran Soriano, who's got to read the statement, he's got to read, as the guys have quite rightly pointed out, the tone or as well as the actual guilty verdicts. Eight times sham. You know, this is absolutely brutal. And they've got to respect the game, they've got to respect the club, and I can see why some Manchester City fans would hope they see the back of these owners. >> Yeah, it's actually been funny to note that sentiment on social media that usually in these sort of circumstances with these stories, obviously a lot of the anger has been at Premier League and journalists in some cases. Uh but in this I'm seeing a lot of the owners. And it does kind of bring us to the other dimension of this, which is that had this concluded two years ago, English football wouldn't have had an independent football regulator. Now it does. And that regulator has statutory powers to force a sale of the club under like to force a sale from rogue owners. And I mean, what would constitute rogue owners more than a scandal like this? And hence we talk about kind of getting into kind of bigger geopolitical dimensions, because that could become a diplomatic incident. >> Mhm. Look, we're we're we're we're casting our eyes a little further into the future, aren't we? And and you know, that's that's fine to to do that, but we're we're still in a a process, aren't we? We've had a judgment and determination. Now there is a response from City and if we look at the Sun just into us here on on Paper Talk, Sham City is is the is the the words that they use. A club initiated revenue inflated revenue by 900 million pounds. Um and then also it says there Soriano hits back and calls it a conspiracy. I just want to focus a little bit more on Ferran Soriano, Sam. I mean, they have got this recourse. This is still a live process. They've got effectively three days to lodge the appeal, which they say that they will. Do you sense that, you know, there's anything that City can meaningfully gain from taking that step, which which we know that they will do, it's inevitable. And again, the demeanor, the language that Ferran Soriano has been using. >> I mean, one thing that I find interesting and perhaps um I'm wrong to to imply that this is unusual, but if you actually watch the video, Ferran Soriano doesn't blink for almost three minutes. Um which perhaps possibly that's something he doesn't do. Maybe he doesn't blink. But, most people would blink within 3 minutes and it does raise the possibility that the video itself has been edited, which I think given the charges that have been made against them and the way they have fake certain revenues, it would be quite interesting and I think not very befitting of the situation if they've faked the video itself. We'll have to find out more about that as as it progresses. But, I mean City's point and Soriano's point is that they won an appeal against uh the Champions League ban in 2020. So, they've been here before in that sense. Obviously, not at this scale and not in this kind of scenario, but they've been in a similar place before. I find his language, we spoke about language of the commission, I find his language very interesting. I mean, even the Man City statement describing it as a Premier League commission. It's not a Premier League commission, it's an independent commission. And they also um spoke about conspiracy theory and this irrefutable evidence. Um and that's the line they've been using for quite a long time and I think from what we've seen from the commission, obviously the appeal is to come. So, we'll see how that progresses. If there is irrefutable evidence, it has not been regarded as irrefutable by other people. City keep repeating City City keep repeating this line, but I think people that are out there now, City fans especially, are within their rights to question where is the evidence? Let's see the evidence. If it's irrefutable and you want your fans to believe that and your staff to believe that and your players to believe that, let's see it. Let's show it. Let's see how it plays out in the court of law. So, there's so many questions and they're so clearly on the back foot, but I suppose if you put yourselves in their shoes, where can they go from here beyond continuing to fight? I mean, they're in the bunker. Uh coming out with your hands up saying, "Yeah, we we did it all wrong. Sorry." It's almost as humiliating as the rest of it perhaps. So, it's a tricky place for them to be obviously, but they put themselves in it. >> Um Henry, I'll come to you for your your uh reaction in a moment, but um we mentioned before Ferran Soriano uh either a man supposedly of many words in this staff video or a man of very few um as was the case when he encountered Sky News sports correspondent Rob Harris. >> Do you apologize to football fans? >> I have nothing to say. Thank you. >> Do you Have you Are you sure you can win on appeal? Is all this success as the as the Premier League says [music] sham contracts? Is this a sham club? Are you destroying football? >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Do you not have a message for football? >> Thank you. >> I mean he he looks so very uncomfortable, doesn't he? And he And you know, you're smiling as you're watching that, Henry. You know, under that microscope, under that scrutiny, with that pressure, all he can offer you is is is thank you. What what What did you make of that? >> Well, I'm smiling because we all uh know, respect, and love Rob Harris. He's he's a he's a brilliant reporter, and he went in there, and he absolutely asked the the the questions. What I find interesting in this Manchester City appeal, and they've obviously had the judgment for a while because you normally get one a fortnight uh to to to actually declare your appeal, and they've got until Friday. So, presumably they've had it for a few days. But um you look at so many people around the world, successful business people often like to do some of their litigation, their legal work in London. One of the reasons why they do that is because the high regard of our legal fraternity, the judges, the KCs, and the past the QCs. And so, I think if one of the arguments that they're going to use in their appeal, which is that the KCs uh might have been biased, I think is the uh is is the suggestion. I think it's absolute nonsense because of the the high regard in which these KCs uh are held throughout the world. So, I just think this appeal is doomed to failure. It embarrasses them even more. It caused more problems throughout English football that everyone's waiting and I think it probably hardens the resolve of other clubs to claim compensation. Because if some point, you know, as as Sam was saying, if at some point City actually accepted they're going to have to take their medicine, then the road to recovery can begin for them. But actually they're just making that road longer and longer and harder and harder and making themselves more and more unpopular. >> Okay. I think it's time to take a little break, don't you? Uh Sam uh and Henry [music] and and Miguel, thank you for the moment. When we come back, we'll look at more of the sports stories in the morning newspapers including this [music] in the Express and on the story that we've been discussing with our guest sham dunk. We're back in a couple of minutes. >> So, welcome back to all of you at home. Welcome back to Sam, Henry, and Miguel here in the studio. Right, we're going straight back into the papers, straight back into the Star. Uh, the dark side of the blue moon. We are the champions. City guilty over phony deals worth 900 million pounds this after the Premier League confirmed that they've been found guilty on all charges related to its serious breaches of its spending rules. I just wonder as well though, Miguel, you know, we talk a knock-on effects and that you know, City have been wanting to use their lawyers to try and not just win this case, but potentially delay, potentially deny. What about other potential cases we might see in the future from other clubs who might well have the appetite for it? >> So, I did a piece in this on Friday night that uh a lot of clubs actually or sorry, three clubs followed in Arsenal who put who basically before the statute of limitations run out on this or time run out on this, they put in a letter basically reserving the right to sue and the figure put on it was 200 million per club. So, the the clubs that did this were Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United and Tottenham. So, you would say the clubs are most directly affected by league position. Now, while that I suppose proper fastens their right to sue, that doesn't actually preclude everyone else suing because I mean look, the word used in the in the decision is sham. And once you I suppose we're into that arena and there the way the information has come to light, there will be the possibility for other clubs to look at similar cuz this goes all the way down and given that the Premier League table is it has a prize money for every position, where you finish kind of affects how much you claim. And also, this is another key part of it. With with the four clubs, the potential claim isn't just about loss of earnings over the year they were directly affected and this is so key to everything else afterwards. It was also about loss of opportunity. So, for example, had Spurs been in the champion or Manchester United been in the Champions League in 2016, they they're fifth place that season so Pep Guardiola's City got to come in in 16/17. Well, suddenly their immediate future from that season change, you get better commercial deals, you can maybe sign better players, players themselves are on better contracts. It's estimated as a 25% bonus if you get into the Champions League. So, it's all those implications. And obviously, it also feed into then the period after 2018, which the investigation doesn't cover. >> Mhm. Um and and and also, I think the other knock-on effect is for the Premier League themselves. Um Henry, you alluded to this before. Um yes, they've pursued Manchester City. And and ultimately, as far as this determination is concerned, they've got the result that they wanted, you know, pretty much. But, how much could this have a negative impact on the way that the league itself is perceived? On the product that has been so carefully