Why do England fail against top sides? | Football Weekly
After England's not-so-shameful defeat to Spain in the Nations League, Max Rushden is joined by Barry Glendenning, Barney Ronay and John Brewin to discuss whether there is, in fact, a correct way for the Three Lions to lose a football match. Watch the full podcast episode ► https://youtu.be/WFGjw1sOgjE Subscribe to Guardian Football ► https://www.youtube.com/@guardianfootball?subconfirmation=1 footballweekly podcast england spain nationsleague
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England two, Spain three. Um, John, obviously we watched the uh Argentina game together with sadness, Barry with happiness, but I mean I uh I was quite enthused about this game. Obviously we didn't win and um we we often don't beat really good teams, but I I wasn't sad. No, no. and and and it was an entertaining international football game uh outside of a of a World Cup or a Euros which is not often the case though it is something to be said the Nations League has made that uh that happen more often. Um, but I suppose after the the shame of Atlanta and and and the the soularching, probably the worst team you wanted to face is Spain because the difference in English football against Spanish football was shown by well what what went wrong for England um in in the fact that the technique of the Spanish still looks so superior. Uh England played well but played this direct football that Tukul has to lean on. Uh there were good points, there were, you know, the folly of Harry Kane falling over himself. But then you look at say a player like Lamin or I play like Alex Bay, you know, these are not English players. English players don't do that stuff. And um and then I suppose if we're looking at from a actual footballing technical level, we appear to be no good at defending anymore. And and and you know, this is England. [laughter] This is England. We we're the country of, you know, of redoubtable center halves. We we're so we're so good at center halves that Steve Bruce could not get an international cap. you know, we had we had John Terry, we had Saul Campbell, we had Rio Ferdinand, we had you know, Jonathan Woodgate, Jamie, all these players and now um you know, and okay, do do we draw any inference from the fact that the two errors that led to Spanish goals were by Manchester City players? I mean, are they distracted? You know, it's Yeah, a a game in microcosm. Fascinating to watch. Great fun. um the best team won because they are the best team in football. Um but I don't know Thomas Tukall's continuing uh role as England manager. It feels it gets shakier all the time, doesn't it? It just feels the the the thread is getting thinner. Uh you know, let's see. Let's see. >> I thought this was maybe like just someone sewed an extra layer back on. I I feel, you know, maybe I'm just I'm just a fool for that gorgeous touch. I know. I just saw one touch. Honestly, sorry. You were there. You were there, Barney. >> Yeah. I just My my response is England just so unlucky, aren't they? We just keep producing the best players in the world. Like, we just should win every tournament. And then we just keep being managed by these idiots every time. Like Tom's fault. Before Before that, we had this Garek's fault. this one guy, this one person who just ruins everything with their terrible, you know, not picking Adam Wharton and really obvious things that would have totally changed everything. Like we just keep hiring these fools like 76 years of hiring idiots that that betray our lions who are clearly the best players in the world. That seems to be the I mean I was listening to the radio this morning and I heard endless dissections of the talle like what tul's the the betrayal of his terrible substitutions slightly different substitutions England would be the best team in the world and not one of the top four teams maybe even though quite clearly other teams have a coaching coaching culture an entire structure that is superior. No, it's this M. And then I heard Anthony Gordon saying, well, it was a good game and we lost to the best team in the world by one goal and we're pretty happy with it. And I thought that's probably quite a sensible take on it, maybe. Or or there's this one guy who actually happens to be a German who should be sacked for taking [snorts] England to the best World Cup they've ever had overseas in his first attempt an international manager 18 months into the job but made some substitutions that went wrong and and it's so unfair when when will English coaches finally get a chance because they're obviously the best in the world. >> Barry, what did you make of it? I'm kind of with Anthony Gordon on this one. I thought it was a really good game. I thought England were good going forward. The the goal they scored to make it 1-1 was superb. [clears throat] Uh meaty Anderson tackle and then some lovely interplay down the middle back to front with Bellingham and Gordon. Um, the defense of the defense was a bit of a shambles and I think the nation's leaguess of it all means most England fans like yourselves probably aren't that fussed about losing the game. Um, and if if this was a more important tournament, um, no doubt there would be people calling for uh Mark Gay and Nico Riley calling for them to be put in the Tower of London and alongside Mr. Tukul, but because it's the Nations League, everyone's a bit it was decent game. We lost not not [snorts] the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination. >> Yeah. God, the Tower of London would be so full of people, wouldn't it? Like, how many England players would be in the tower, you know? They're all there. Beckham's in there, Rooney's in there, Capello. Just an endless list of people in the It would make visiting the Tower of London probably more interesting, actually. >> Well, I [laughter] mean, a a friend's wife who sort of has a passing interest in in football asked me on Saturday to what is the Nation's league? And the best way I could think of to describe it was, well, it's it's a tournament, but it's one I wouldn't care if England won. So, that >> that tells [laughter] you everything. >> Yeah. I I I think England should try I think the Nation League is quite good, though. I mean, I think England should try and win it. Um I think I don't think they will, but I think it would be really good if they tried to win it and and maybe did because it is winnable. They haven't big problem seems to be trying to actually win things and they're not ever going [clears throat] to get a better opportunity to win something than the Euros at home two years from now when they'll still have good players at their peak. That that's the chance because Tuk's a good manager. They've got good players. It's at home games like this. Uh yeah, it's it's October. The players are fresh. So you can play in those quite and it's it's the evening. It was 16 degrees at Wembley or whatever. So you can play and they had some really good periods had 15-minute spells where they pressed really well and you suddenly thought oh they can win jewels against these players cuz you know they that's an element where England had a sort of physical superiority and not just muscle like they pressed really well and there were little bits where they how and you thought oh there's a model here for how you can actually succeed against a team that's better on the ball than you are and and I thought in those little moments so maybe there's something here that could mean England could actually win these kind of games and I winning the Nations League is their best route to actually winning the Euros, but that's now going to be really difficult. Uh, and also it won't always be Wembley 16° and and moments where you kind of catch Spain a bit cold after Halime. But in the end, I think it was a game about Spain and not about England. and you saw just how good they are and how good their system is and attacking subs come on immediately pick up the game and score two goals in 15 minutes with that and it's seamless and it's a tribute to their football culture that that they can do that um rather than sort of panning England we should probably appreciate how good that is. No, of course. And you know, it isn't as simple as Kane scores that penalty and can win because you know, Faren Torres has those chances to make it two-nil, etc., etc. But if Kane scores that penalty, I feel like it's World Cup 2022. But I suppose the difficulty, John, of comparing, you know, I, you know, I was trying to, you know, I was actually I asked producer Joel to, you know, find all the results against the top top teams, whatever that means. and there aren't that many because you don't end up playing that many. But comparing the Nations League in the World Cup in the Euros just it's actually pointless because there just the whole thing about it is is is different. But as everyone's alluded to the depth of Spain and the bench, you know, you mentioned Baya, you know, Pedri comes on, Yazabel comes on, you know, they're really good. Spain have this culture which is a hybrid of several different things, don't he? So you have the Bass culture which has produced all these coaches that we had in the Premier League. uh and uh you know how a club like Athletic Build Bow through its recruitment policy has to breed young players because but by almost economic uh to to to run the business they have to do that but then you've got the Barcelona schools all these things that that fit together to produce this amazing football culture which is you can't imitate the Germans tried to imitate it it worked for a while and then it came apart and And the German you see now is a very milk toast sort of Spain hybrid that doesn't really actually you know it can't it it's lost what made German football great at the start and what Thomas Tukul has tried to do and Anthony Gordon talked about this before the game didn't he about we need to play fast direct football that suits us now the thing is they can do that Anthony Gordon is actually one of the best proponents of that he's actually got it looks have got better since he went to Spain you know he he He he >> another product of Lamasia this Spanish football's producing players like Anthony Gordon now. >> Yeah. I mean look at that. Yeah. It's amazing isn't it? And and you you but I in to to deflect it back to England which we always do. It's how do we arrive at that where we take the best from all our separate English facets and make it and and as Barney says, you know, at the end of it, we just always seem to end up with someone to blame. And it was Southgate who did such a fine job and Thomas Tukl has actually done, you know, a good job. But we cannot stop just fraying at that, you know, oh god, it's him and it's done this and you know, we're all guilty. We're in this game, aren't we, where we've got to find someone to blame. But do we need anyone to blame? Do we just have to accept the Spanish have got this nailed for now? It won't last forever, but they do actually, if you think about it, there was a point where Spain look to have lost it, but they've come back and they've regenerated. We've got to generate. That's what we've got to do. Barry, what did you make of James Trafford getting the nod over Pikford who has uh you know to quote many phone in caller or pundit go he's never let England down but Trafford came in for this game and you know and it seemed that Tukul was picking his strongest team >> big Jordan Pigford fan ever since he was a kid at Sunderland uh and yeah he hasn't done much wrong playing for England I think his time as automatic first choice may be coming to an and Thomas Duke may well share the same opinion because we're both intelligent football men. Um, if you want to try out new players in the Nation's League is the time to do it and uh I think it's healthy for Jordan Pigford to have stiff competition. um in Trafford, Pigford, Henderson, uh England have some brilliant goalkeeper, three really really good goalkeepers. I I often wonder, we know how ged up and fist pumpy and hyper >> Jordan Pigford uh gets during games. I I wonder if maybe England's defense would prefer a less uh manic presence behind them, but I don't know. But as you say, he he is he has been a very good servant for England. >> Yeah, I I there were several occasions in the World Cup where I saw um Jordan Pigford hit one of those passes downfield. He he is really good at these passes, but it's basically just a absolute missile at someone's head. Really instant. He's seen something, he's thought, I'm going to do that. He's obviously been empowered to do that. It's good. It works sometimes. And then I looked at Tukul and saw him like head in his hands. What are you doing? Why have you done that? And I think um he got frustrated with some of Pigford's decision making and possibly linked that slightly to between 55 and 72 minutes uh in Atlanta where England did suddenly start hitting these quick clearances, kept playing like it was the last two minutes and he he didn't know how to stop that happening. Um didn't perhaps make the right changes. Maybe one of the changes he might have made would be take the goalkeeper off and bring someone on who's a bit calmer in their distribution. But you'd never do that in football for something that's just never done. But he I could see him visibly. I'd always look straight to Tukul when that happened. And it was like this reliable kind of nudge. He would instantly be leaping up and down waving his arms around. And I think that might have something to to do with it. A tactical change. >> Yeah. Are you saying at Lamasia they don't have uh missile 80 yard missile to someone's head? Double double 80 yard missile someone's head you know after you know after lunch on a Friday. And that's when you get to learn how to do that. Um, uh, by the way, if you want more Spain, Sidlo sat down with Lamin recently to discuss, uh, uh, his career so far. That's Yamal's career so far, not Sid's career so far. Uh, you can, uh, [laughter] you can find that in the paper or on the website, of course.