Start, Bench or Drop: Pele, Messi & Maradona 👀 | ESPN FC Extra Time

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ESPN FC Extra Time: ranking Pele, Maradona and Messi, plus Gazza, Wirtz and Merseyside

The panel used “start, bench or drop” to compare Pele, Maradona and Messi, then debated the Lewandowski-Ronaldo double-standard question, England icons, Gascoigne’s character, Wirtz’s role and Hutchinson’s Liverpool-to-Everton move. There was no single conclusion; the value was in the guests’ personal rankings and anecdotes.

On today's edition of ESPN FC Extra Time, Kay Murray is joined by Shaka Hislop and Don Hutchinson to answer your questions.... 0:00 Start, Bench, Drop: Pele, Messi & Maradona 1:07 Did you play in a club legend's last match? 3:27 Double standard for Robert Lewandowski? 4:44 English comparable to Messi to Argentina? 9:37 Is Florian Wirtz being misprofiled? 12:02 EPL 90s Christmas party 15:10 Scotland's all-time Starting XI 16:30 Shaka's yacht adventures 20:28 Liverpool fan treatment after joining Everton? ✔️ Subscribe to ESPN Unlimited: https://plus.espn.com/ ESPN ESPNFCextratime fcextratime

Transcript

Welcome into the latest edition of extra time. Shaka's here in the studio. Donatello Hutchison as well. Our little resident Italian. >> [laughter] >> All right. >> Oh boy. >> First question. Start, bench, or drop, Don? Pelé, Maradona, Messi. >> Oh boy. >> Good luck. >> Wow. I I I mean, that is >> That ain't right. >> That is just the rudest question of all time. That is horrible. I'm I'm going to start Maradona. I'm going to bench [music] Messi and drop Pelé. >> Wow. I'm going to go completely the opposite. I'm going to start Pelé. I'm going to bench Messi and drop Maradona. >> Let Let Let's be honest with ourselves. You could do whatever you want. You could do whatever you want and and you'll still be right. >> Yeah. >> Shaka and Don, did you ever play in a club legend's last match, or an international legend's last match for their country? [music] >> Um I played in Peter Beardsley's testimonial up at Newcastle against Celtic. Which is hilarious. We were losing. So, um Kevin Keegan was the manager at the time. So, Keegan just started putting players on. We ended the game, Newcastle ended the game with about 50 players on the park. >> [laughter] >> We had about 50. But now, Celtic realized, to their credit, and they thought it was hilarious. It It's, you know, it's a testimonial, you know? So, we have 50 players. And then, we were trailing. So, Shearer runs into the box and just does a swan dive with nobody near to him. Referee points at the spot for Beardsley to take the penalty because he hadn't scored in his own testimonial. Beardsley takes the penalty, misses. Ref disallows it. [laughter] Encroachment, retake. And and then Beardsley's at this point, honestly, >> [music] >> everybody's just having the time of their lives. The fans are killing themselves laughing. The Celtic players and even their bench are just killing themselves. We It was just It really was a really really nice day. And and you couldn't ask for more from Celtic as a visiting team. First for the numbers that they brought and secondly for how they just kind of bought into the atmosphere. It was just It really was a lot of fun. >> it. 15 against 11. >> Yeah. >> Did you win? [music] >> Yeah, we won it. I think so. I think we won it, yeah. >> [laughter] >> Well, I wish I wish I hadn't this question was coming up because I've got a shirt over to my right-hand side that's framed and I played in Stevie Nicol's testimonial for Liverpool. >> You've got to go get IT, DON. OH, MAN. >> But that was the last >> It's over there in the garage. >> Oh. >> My garage is having a revamp, so it's it's it's there. It's framed. It's all ready. Yeah, I played in Stevie's testimonial. Amazing and I absolutely Brilliant it was. >> I wonder what it was like after the game, Don. >> Ooh, there was a few beers in the players' lounge. >> That shirt is not framed. >> [laughter] >> Love it. All right. Shaka and Don, last year Robert Lewandowski refused to play for Poland after being stripped of the captaincy for sitting out an international window and not playing until the coach was subsequently fired. Why is there such a double standard for Ronaldo? >> Um It shouldn't be a double standard. It should It shouldn't be in my opinion. I mean, I know me and Shaka are having disagreement on this one, but uh it shouldn't be. It should be the same rule for either player. Shouldn't It shouldn't matter if you're myself, Shaqiri, UK, or one of the best players in the world. If the manager doesn't want to pick you, in my opinion, that's his prerogative. >> So, the question here almost suggests that there wasn't criticism of Lewandowski for sitting out. >> [music] >> There absolutely was. And from my recollection, it was absolutely universal. Nobody backed Lewandowski for for doing what he did. Um I If there is a double standard, is that in >> [music] >> some people see it from Jorge Jesus' perspective. Some people see it from from Ronaldo's. And and as Don mentioned, we kind of see don't see eye to eye on this. But I I don't think I don't think it's fair to suggest that nobody was critical of Robert Lewandowski. Because everybody was, to a man. >> Okay. You guys, who is an English icon comparable to what Messi or Zidane are to their countries? >> Who's an English icon? Oh, so I Well, you're the you're the English Englishwoman here. K, you're you're the one who's best equipped to Don, Scottish, and Italian. >> And Italian. >> Bobby Moore. >> Bobby Moore. >> say I would say Bobby Moore. >> is a good one, right? It's in a different way to why Messi and Zidane are, but David Beckham is like an icon in England, isn't he? >> It [music] did But you're right, it's it's a different way. It's a different way. >> But like to that standard of how they're seen, there's like a many there's many names, right, Don? But >> [music] >> I don't know if there's quite the same you could compare quite the same. >> a shame. It's a shame. It's a shame if England didn't win a World Cup, and Gazza would have been part of that. Cuz that's Gazza would have been the the answer to that. Cuz everyone absolutely adores him, yeah, and everyone loved him. But totally different to Bobby Moore. You know, Bobby Moore was clean. You know, looked after himself and elite immaculate footballer. But I think [music] when you can fall in love with a with a player, that's probably why I like Maradona. You can fall in love with a player. If Gazza had have won the World Cup with England, he might have been the answer to that. >> Yeah. Gazza. Everybody loved Gazza. >> I I love Gazza. >> I loved Gazza growing up. Pictures all over my wall. >> I I absolutely love Gazza. >> K- K- We lived We lived 2 minutes apart growing up. >> [music] >> Yes, absolutely. Yeah. >> Yeah, we lived Yeah Yeah, lived around the corner from each other. >> Yeah. [music] Played for the same boys club as him. >> I thought. So, I've I've got one Gazza story which I'll I'll tell. So, when I got I called I got called into the England national team. This would have been in '98, [music] I think it was. I'd actually got called into the B team to start with. And then Tim Flowers got injured. >> [music] >> So, Hoddle was a manager. So, Hoddle called me down to meet up with the the A team. Now, we were playing against Chile at at Wembley. So, I kind of arrive halfway into camp. And [music] nobody knows me. It's the first time I'm I'm called up. Um from Trinidad, too, to add to that. >> [music] >> Uh so, I just kind of arrive out of the blue. And Gazza calls me over and starts chatting me and and involves me in everything that's going on. And all of a sudden, now I'm everybody's friend. And but without without Gazza stepping in, and he had no reason to because I had never met Gazza before in my life. >> [music] >> Um without Gazza kind of stepping in and making me a part feel a part of the group, I I don't think I'd have been accepted in the way that I was. And ever since that, I I would not have a bad word said about Gazza. I think he's an incredible human being. >> Aw, I love that. And I know that's the same, Don. You've told us some of those stories before. But when you'd see him as a kid, could you just see that talent even then? >> Well, we played for the same boys club, Redheugh Boys Club. And we we everyone knew. Everyone knew. But the standard when [music] you're playing at it's very hard because when you're playing it like 10, 11, 12, 13 and you're playing for a boys club, everyone's brilliant. Every everyone's got it. People just go off in different directions. I played with a couple of lads that, you know, when I got asked for a for a trial at Hartlepool, one my mate of mine was a postman and he went, "Oh, I'm not giving up my money. I'm a postman. I'm earning 100 quid a week and I'm not going down to 27.50 at Hartlepool." And I went, "Well, I'm going. I said I just need to know. I need to know if I'm good enough." And he obviously didn't do it and I went to Hartlepool. Six months later, I'm at Liverpool. Well, you could see when Gazza played like he was he just had something different about him, but he wasn't like he wasn't like elite because when you're at Gateshead and Newcastle and the standard is so high, the competition is so so good. There was a kid called Shaun Murray who never really made it as a pro. He played for Hartlepool, Darlington, but he left Redheugh Boys Club to go to Tottenham. That was all the big chat [music] back in the day when he was like 14, 15, Shaun Murray. And he never quite made it where Gazza was just he went into Newcastle >> [music] >> and he, you know, he was eating too much. He liked his Mars bars. He was a little bit chubby as a kid. And then he went to Newcastle and the manager just sort of Jack Charlton sort of sat him down and went, "Listen, it's [music] two ways. You need to look after yourself and start training properly, otherwise you're going to fall away like many [music] a kid that I played with fell away." And then Gazza done it. And then I remember a game that he scored for Newcastle and he stuck one in the stanchion at the Gallowgate end and that's it. Fergie wanted him. Everyone wanted him. Everyone could see the talent. But he had to sort of he had to get past that. He had to get past as all the teenagers do. You had to get past that little women phase, women phase, drinking phase with your mates and you've got to try and leave it and park it if you can. >> [music] >> And many don't. And he just fell on the right side at the right time and then flew. >> Nice stuff. [music] Okay, Don, for all the talk about Verts being a neat and tidy player, every time you watch him at Liverpool, he either mostly misplaces a simple pass or loses out possession in his own half. Could it be that he's not the player everyone thinks he is and he's simply just being misprofiled? >> No, he's the player that everyone thinks he is. He just needs to play higher up the pitch. Because what when he plays and the neat touches that he has, you watch him and you go, "That was lovely. That was 50 yards away from goal." And then he'll do something else and you go, "That was a lovely little touch." Like [laughter] that leather jacket. You know, sometimes you sometimes your profile picture Well, sometimes your profile picture just doesn't match up to where you should be playing. And that that leather jacket's case in point. >> [music] >> Why Why did that just pop up on the screen? >> [laughter] >> That was great work from the production team, by the way. >> [laughter] >> If Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels had called me, I'd have been I'd have been right for that role. >> is he Is he still your player of the year or is that going down as badly as your leather jacket in this picture? >> [laughter] >> No. I listen, I'd be foolish to try and [laughter] dig in and say he's going to be player of the year. I'd be really foolish to do that, but I think he is he does need to show his skills >> [music] >> closer to the opposition goal and closer to Isaac and closer to Bakayoko, not 50 yards away from goal. >> Did Did you have a leather jacket? >> [laughter] >> Maybe. >> I bet you had a worse jacket. >> If I If I did, I didn't take a photo of it. That's me. That's me sure. If I had anything remotely like that, you would not get a photo of me. Never. Nope. >> What's the worst you had? >> Not as bad as that. >> We used to have L for leather in Middlesbrough. >> [laughter] >> You must have had Shaq. Shaka, you must have had some sort of jacket or coat. >> Where did you find that? >> Where did you find a kind of bronzy gold colors to go and get a jacket? >> [laughter] >> I'm going to go back I'm going back to Julie's nightclub on the quayside. I'm going to get their CCTV footage of you rocking in there with some sort of jacket on. >> There's nothing There's nothing there. >> Nothing there? >> Nothing there. >> Nothing there? >> And we'll get to that. >> Never been to Julie's. Never been to Julie's. >> Don, Yiannakis Oulias once shuddered at the idea that footage was recovered from a '90s Premier League team Christmas party. Since Shaq was always home by 10:00 p.m. >> That's right. That's right. >> He's done. >> [laughter] >> No. Of course you can't tell anyone what these parties were like. >> [laughter] >> I know I can remember one. I can remember one and I and it's clean. It was when I signed for West Ham. I'll say we cuz I was there but I wasn't really part of, you know, organizing the Christmas party but I was there and I took part in it. We hired a nightclub in Essex called Secrets. It was a nightclub. And whoever organized it organized for a bouncy castle boxing ring. >> [laughter] >> And it was all laid out saying round one Shaq versus Don. And you were on a bouncy castle with oversized gloves on trying to fight each other. Right? And then Shaq would Shaq would beat me up obviously. He'd go down He'd go through to the next round. And then Matthew Rush might be fighting John Moncur or Ian Bishop fighting Trevor Morley. And they [music] everyone fought on this bouncy castle in a nightclub. No one there apart from the players. And then all of a sudden it got to about sort of 9:00 10:00 bouncy castle got cleared. [music] The general public then came in. And then that was our Christmas party. They never had a clue what was going on from about 4:00 in the afternoon up until about 8:00 or 9:00. >> I love that. Could they football at Christmas party, Shaq? >> Um >> Any stories? >> At Newcastle, we had a hypnotist one year. >> [laughter] >> That was interesting. Yep. Uh she had about six or seven of the boys up on stage and the hypnotist hypnotizer. And [music] um it was uh interesting. Let's just leave it at leave it at that. It was It was It was a lot of fun. I cuz I grew up First of all, I I never believed those things before. But yeah, [music] yep. >> They are real though, Shaq. >> It It will Yeah, I know. Well, I was not hypnotized. Let me just put that disclaimer out there right now. I was not hypnotized, but yeah. Yeah. >> My dad was My My dad was My My dad was in a [music] uh working man's club in Gateshead. Um I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head. Um and I was a pop boy in there and they had a hypnotist on and they came around and she was trying to hypnotize me and my brother said if she spent five five more seconds on you, you were gone. But she moved on to my dad who was sort of well known in the area, a bit of a sort of hard man if you like, so he wouldn't fake it. He went on stage in front of all his mates and she got him to tell a joke on STAGE IN MARTIAN. [music] >> [laughter] >> SO HE'S ON THE STAGE GOING "BUH BUH." >> [laughter] >> Oh god. >> I love it. >> Oh boy. >> And he wouldn't fake it. >> Oh. >> He wouldn't fake it. I'm telling you that it was real. That was real. It's real. >> Okay, Don. Would a Scotland all-time 11 have a chance to win the next World Cup? >> Ooh. Ooh. >> Here we go, okay. Here we go. What a team this is. Andy Goram in goal. >> Mhm. Danny McGrain at right back. Andy Robertson at left back. [music] Alan Hansen, Billy McNeill. Now, this is where it gets interesting, the front six. >> [music] >> Davie Cooper one of the best wingers I've ever seen. Jimmy Johnstone on the other side was a little bit before my time, but everyone tells me out of this world. Jim Baxter and Graeme Souness [music] in midfield. And then the two kings at the top of the pitch. Kenny Dalglish, Dennis Law. What a team. >> That's a good side. >> Very good side. Could it win the World Cup, though? Right now. >> Yep. That's a good side. >> Yeah? >> Nope. >> Yeah? >> No, yep. Nope. I know. >> Maybe. >> [laughter] >> You know, he gets to go to Stevie's testimonial, gets the shirt and everything, doesn't even put him in the >> No. >> Can't believe you, Don. >> Why? Stevie's going to think I should >> have put him on the question was coming up. I could have got the shirt ready. >> Ah. >> Well, it doesn't matter cuz he wasn't in your 11, so what's the point? >> You blanked him. >> Nah, he's not getting in. He's not getting in anyway. >> Shaq, when on your yacht, not your private jet, your yacht, do you demand to be called Captain Shaq by all aboard? What has been your favorite adventure so far while sailing on the sea? >> [sighs and gasps] >> Uh, good question. Boy. >> [laughter] >> Boy. [screaming] Boy. This [laughter] is good. >> Is Shaq in my team? >> AI is dangerous. >> How would that work, Shaq? Do you need his tonsils OR THE JACKET? >> [laughter] >> THIS IS AI IS GETTING OUT OF HAND. BOY. >> Does he have to be called Captain Shaq? >> Um, no, it's fine. No, it's fine. I'm I'm a I'm a people's captain. I'm a people's captain on my uh on my yacht. >> Where do you like to sail? >> I I I don't sail very far. >> Okay. >> No, seriously. Everybody who knows me, if we can't see land, I'm I'm done. No, not that I have a yacht, but I'm just saying generally, unless I'm on a big old cruise, like a big old >> But Shaka, you're from the Caribbean. >> If we cannot see land, take me back. I'm not doing that. I am too much of a coward. I need to be able to see land. >> You can swim, Shaka. >> I can swim, not >> Yeah, yeah. Okay, I can swim, not very well. Not very well and not very far. I'm one of those. I have to be swimming 100% hell-for-leather, or I'm going to sink. So, I've got a good 50 yd in me. >> told you What if the hypnotist said you can swim, Shaka? >> First of all, >> You can swim. >> You hypnotist hypnotizing me? >> No. >> Nope, I don't want to be there. >> He's seen what happens. >> Speaking of swim, talking about football. So, I go on So, this is actually after leave Portsmouth, which is before signing for West Ham, I go to Crystal Palace. So, do preseason at Crystal Palace. Ian Dowie was manager. He's doing pool sessions. So, I'm like but no, I'm I'm I'm an older player at this point. So, I'm like, "Listen, I'm swimming on the side." Cuz when I go and I'm tired, I'm just holding onto the air. I don't care. He's like, "All right." So, I'm [music] So, now everybody's swimming. Next thing, there's a young player on trial sinks. He He just runs out of gas. Too embarrassed to say anything cuz he's on trial, and sinks in Somebody has to come diving in when the assistant coaches, cuz everybody else is just swimming Everybody's knackered at this point. Everybody else is just kind of swimming and and, you know, doing whatever they they they told, however many lengths we were told. >> [music] >> Nobody realizes he's at the bottom of the pool. One of the assistant coaches has to come diving in to save this to save this young lad. I'm like, you see, that's why I'm on the side. I I'm not I ain't doing nothing. >> Did Ian have with him an Australian guy who was the swim coach? Cuz I had him at Coventry. >> Oh, I I can't remember. I can't remember who it was. But I'm I'm I'm just a near child cuz >> two, number three. He was loved >> All right, maybe that's what it was. >> loved swimming, Australian. So on in our rehab, we have to do a mile swim in our rehab. We got to top me head, took us about an hour. >> I'm good for a length and a half. I'm good for a length and a half, I'm telling you. >> [music] >> And then I have and then but I can say I I don't care. I'm I'm 34, 35 at this point, so yeah, this would have been 2005, some 36 years old. I'm like, I'm on the side. And when I'm tired, I'm stopping. >> [music] >> And then they go, you've got to push yourself. I'm like, nope, I'm stopping. >> Yeah? How long? >> Yeah. I Yeah, I'm I'm not playing that. >> Yeah, fair enough. All right. Done. >> [laughter] >> Maserati, take your pick. Done. After Craig mentioned Mo Johnston's Rangers move, I wondered about your transfer across Stanley Park. How did Liverpool fans treat you around town after joining Everton? Anywhere near old firm levels of heat? >> No. Nowhere near. Nowhere near old firm levels. I was actually quite I was quite lucky really cuz I was jus