Why fans have NO respect for Arsenal and Arteta | The Pitch
On this episode of The Pitch, Arsenal fan Harry Symeou and Man City fan Adam Monk go head-to-head on the biggest talking points in football. Does Arsenal’s Carabao Cup final defeat damage their Premier League title hopes? Would an Arsenal treble actually be MORE impressive than Man City’s? And why do fans still show so little respect to Mikel Arteta and this Arsenal side? premierleague arsenal football carabaocup
Transcript
Does Arsenal's Carabao Cup final loss signal the start of a collapse? >> Arsenal are the ones in front. If anybody needs to go and win it, it's Manchester City. >> Is Arteta to blame? >> I can't forgive that. I think that's a really poor error on Mikel Arteta's part. >> And do Manchester City respect Arsenal enough? >> The almost fans are looking at it with disgust going, "If they win the league with them up front, how's that possible?" >> On this week's episode of The Pitch, we brought together Harry Symeou, an Arsenal fan, and Adam Monk, a Manchester City fan, to agree or disagree with the questions that you have been asking. Starting with, will the cup final negatively impact Arsenal's title chances? Three, two, one. Adam, we'll start with you. >> Manchester City's first ever Premier League title win, the '11-'12 season, with six games to go, we were eight points behind with no games in hand. And that was against Alex Ferguson's Manchester United, a proven winning machine. Now, this is actually less of a deficit given we've got the game in hand. It's six at the moment. Should we beat Crystal Palace? Let's face it, they're they're on the beach really, now, aren't they? So, that game for Arsenal at the Etihad is the one that they have to go and win. And I think that that game psychologically for Arteta and that team, it'll now incentivize them and push them to go there and be more conservative and try and play out a nil-nil draw, which I think will play into our hands. >> That's where I think you're wrong, though. Why does the team that's nine points ahead have to go and win the game at the Etihad? All they have to do is avoid defeat. >> Mhm. >> So, this idea >> This isn't the minus >> No, but this idea that Arsenal have to go and win that game is not true. Arsenal are the ones in front. If anybody needs to go and win it, it's Manchester City. >> Another thing I I struggle with when we're talking about Manchester City this season, nobody's taking away the achievements of Pep Guardiola so far. I think that was what, 18th, 19th trophy? 19th trophy yesterday. Incredible return. Nobody's disputing that for a second. But throughout the course of this campaign, Manchester City have shown inconsistency after inconsistency. >> Absolutely. >> So, why are you so convinced that going into the final stretch of the Premier League season, that Arsenal A Arsenal will drop the required amount of points, but the B Manchester City can put the required amount of points on the board. Has one game really completely changed the way that we're looking at City? Cuz if we did this last week, I'm sure your outlet would have been very different. >> absolutely would have been. Don't get me wrong. I'm not denying that. He went for it against Arsenal, almost man-to-man with Zubimendi and Rice in midfield, and it paid dividends this time round. He always gets the last laugh. And I think for those players, it's such a young squad, a new squad for City now. It meant so much, and you could see yesterday he was kicking the Carabao advertisement board, running the length of half the pitch. That there sets a precedent for those young players that they know now they can get over the line, they can get silverware. It'll bode well for the for the seven eight games we've got to go left this season, I think. >> I don't think that what I saw on Sunday is enough to completely change my opinion on where the Premier League title is going. And if Arsenal win the Premier League title, I promise you, I could not care less about what happened on Sunday. >> You made a point, Adam, a minute ago. You said 50/50 when I asked you about the Arsenal title chart, um about Manchester City's title chart. Interestingly enough, though, it's a nine-point gap. For me, that shows some of a a lack of respect. Do you think Manchester City fans show Arsenal enough respect? Three, two, one. >> Yeah. >> Why not? >> You know, I feel like in the the media, there's this there's this desperation to see Arsenal fail. And I think when you see that as a rival fan, and you don't watch Arsenal week in, week out, just like I don't watch City in full week in, week out, I think it's very easy to fall into that trap and to sit there and say, "This Arsenal team's going to drop points. This Arsenal team aren't good enough. They can't get over the line." I think there's an element of disrespect that stems from some of the media reporting around the club, and then that seeps into other people's thinking. And I and I think I see a lot of City fans online especially and I know it's not always the best way to gauge opinion that have throughout always felt that Arsenal were going to crumble at some point. And I don't know if internally they're feeling something different, but they're projecting something else. But I just think when you're nine points behind and I know there's a game in hand and there's that meeting, I think Arsenal deserve to be the favorites and expected to win this league. >> Adam, why are you going so nasty? >> Well, >> [laughter] >> come on. I'm not I said I do show them respect. I do show them respect. Look, I think this is me personally before I get onto the fan base and also wider football discourse. I think if Arsenal win the league playing the way they have, and that's where it stem from, it's the way that Arteta has played. Now, don't roll your eyes. I'm stay I'm I'm explaining for all the City fans, okay? Right. The way Arsenal played is what's leaving such a sour taste in the mouth of some fans alike. I think Paul Scholes came out and said like they shouldn't even award the Premier League, which is a ridiculous take, right? If Arsenal win the league playing whatever way, the fans should celebrate it, they should lap it up, and they should glow as well. It's an amazing feeling to get that first one over the line in since I was in reception. That's when it was last, the Invincibles season. So, I think Arteta's antics have kind of led lent towards this certain complaints after games. I think the first one that comes to mind was St. James's Park. Was it last season, two seasons ago? There was a goal given, it was 1-0 Newcastle, and it was a bit dubious. >> Anthony Gordon won it Yes. >> [laughter] >> I told you he would >> But it was legitimate at the end of the day in my eyes. I think Gabriel, the way that he's behaved at some points, you know, you're going to have these players who are like the antagonists, aren't you? They're going to antagonize opposition. You actually need them, but I think that that has riled fans up combined with the fact that I think Yocore's has part part to do with it as well. Because I think that he's such a ugly striker on the eye test that almost fans are looking at it with disgust going if they win the league with him up front, how's that possible? Like that's I think that's fed into it to an extent, too. Just think Arsenal fans online are more easy to antagonize than the rest because they've not won much. There's no arguments to lean back on for Arsenal fans. >> Arsenal fans can be quite defensive online. I think that that is often the narrative that gets pushed out there. Do you think that's fair or not? >> No, I don't. I don't because I think there's a lot of Arsenal fans online. There's some of the best content creators in the football space are Arsenal fans and they do amazing work and there's some amazing sort >> We're talking to one of these >> Yeah. There's a There's amazing things that you can like watch and listen to and I think, you know, I think with Arsenal the problem is that there's a lot of us and there is a lot of us. And I don't mean this disrespectfully to Manchester City, but we are one of the, if you want, legacy clubs of English football, ourselves, Liverpool, and Manchester United. I'd say it's United, Liverpool, and Arsenal in terms of order of biggest clubs and that means there's more fans. If you've had 30 years to build up a legacy and you've got worldwide fan bases, that increases your presence online and the bigger the sample size the more people that you shouldn't listen to are going to emerge, right? So, I just think it's it's it's that >> I think that some of it is performative. You look at today at Wembley Way, there was a group of Arsenal ultras. They've adopted a culture from from Europe that kind of that that ultra culture. >> What about the person on by the way? Where did you get that from? >> That's a gimmick. All right, I feel you're the host, you're meant to be impartial. That's a gimmick and also uh it looks good at Wembley when there's loads of fans doing it. It's an aesthetic thing. Whereas I think like marching on Wembley Way banging a drum, that's not Arsenal and it feels like there's a section of the fan base that are are performing for social media and I don't mean the content creators, the people who do hard work and produce I just mean general videos like that where it's sections of the fans. I'm thinking, it's just a bit bizarre. >> understand to an extent. I think this is a little bit of a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. So, otherwise it's like there's no atmosphere or if you do do it, it's you're trying to be someone else that you're not. Do you know what I mean? It's like what what can they do? >> This This This is where I talk about narratives, right? If you think about it, Mikel Arteta came in, he introduced the Angel, the song that people cringed at the time. At the beginning I was a bit like, "I'm not sure about this." Because we've tried it before. We've tried different >> the North London forever? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we've tried different songs at Emirates Stadium pre-game. None of them have really taken off. This one has taken off. So, for that reason, because I see how engaged people are in it, I think I've changed my mind on it. I quite like it now. The ultras thing is a group called the Ashburton Army who have a section at the Emirates Stadium and they've done a wonderful job in improving the atmosphere at Emirates Stadium. If If people have a little bit of a laugh at us online, but we've got a better atmosphere in our stadium, I'm okay with that. I think football is changing all the time and I think we're never going to always support a the team in the same way. And I saw this from James Benge tweet this earlier. If you expect fans now to support the club the same way their granddads did, then you're you're you're ignoring the fact that football moves on. So, >> That is true. No punching police officers anymore or anything like that like it was in the '80s. Kepa killed the quadruple hopes or was it Arteta? 3 2 1 >> [clears throat] >> So, you think it was Kepa, Adam? >> Yes. >> I've been to a League Cup final before where Kepa gave us the trophy actually. He's got form for this. Yeah, he's got form for this. Think Chelsea obviously refused to come off the bench. Liverpool >> You beat Van Dijk though. >> beat Van Dijk. Yeah. And >> He did go to score though. >> Coming, yeah. [laughter] Um but let's talk about yesterday. So, it's a bit of a weird one. I kind of think both to an extent on this and we actually don't fully know the answer cuz I I firmly believe that it it may well just be in Kepa's contract that he has to that game. I think for a lot of backups who sign, if they're brought in as the number two, it's written in that either, you know, I think in Spain it's a bit of a drama at Barcelona you have the other European keeper and a domestic one. Here it's a cup keeper and then domestic and league and Champions League one. It could be that kind of situation where it's just contractually written. If it's not, then it can be Arteta's fault. Well, because I think it is, I just think it falls on Kepa's head and it's not the first time he's done this. I just don't think he's a very a goalkeeper, to be quite honest with you. And the simple matter of fact is David Raya catches that cross. Kepa doesn't at the end of the day. Not only that, there was actually I watched a video earlier today of Ben White in the game. You mentioned it before we recorded, Henry, that a lot of for a lot of the game Kepa just had his foot on the ball and people were saying that's to do with City's pressing structure and Kepa didn't really know what to do, but the out ball was there to Ben White consistently in the second half and it wasn't played and I just think that's cuz Kepa don't have the minerals to actually play that pass whereas David Raya does. That pass there into Ben White beats our four-man press and then you've broken the first phase, the first line that City are imposing. I think that feeds itself into the way that the you know, we know that the modern goalkeepers are crucial integral part of how a team sets up. If you take that component out, it falls like a pack of cards. I've seen it with Claudio Bravo in the first season of Pep, trust me. So, I think for that game, if we're just talking about the personnel on the pitch, then yes, it falls on Kepa. If Arteta had the option to not play him, then it falls on Mikel. >> Harry, you said it was Arteta. Yeah, I I don't know that Kepa's got that in his contract, so I'm going to I'm just assuming. Yeah, I'm going to assume that he doesn't cuz I don't know that for a fact. Um For me, it's clear that there's a a hierarchy in terms of the goalkeepers at Arsenal. They're they're not close. Raya is outstanding. Kepa is about as good a second choice goalkeeper as you can realistically hold on to at a club like Arsenal given that your minutes are going to be limited. I just think Mikel Arteta lets sentiment get in the way. And he went with sentiment over the ruthlessness and that's not been his way. That's not why Arsenal are where they are today. Arteta's been the opposite of that. And it was disappointing actually to see him sort of pander to that because I think Kepa's impact in the final goes way beyond as as you were alluding to, it goes way beyond just the mistake. I don't think David Raya makes the mistake, but if he does make the mistake, you're not looking at the manager cuz the manager's done everything within his power to pick the best available team. But in terms of how we struggled to play out and Man City's four-man presses you mentioned which was really problematic for us. When we had the ball at center half and we needed a way through and it wasn't going through the midfield, normally you roll it back to Raya and you let him pick out a pass and the quality of his distribution is so far superior to Kepa's that his inclusion in the game impacted us way beyond just that mistake and I can't forgive that. I think that's a really poor error on Mikel Arteta's part. Um and I and I think that that was ultimately costly in the final cuz at nil-nil City were the better team, don't get me wrong, but at nil-nil you're still in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting what you say about sentiment because I remember 2019 Europa League final Petr Cech started in goal when Bernd Leno was actually the better keeper at the time. Did this to you feel a little bit like the Arsenal of old, the soft underbelly that we referred to earlier? Yeah, and the thing that frustrates me is that you and a lot of Arsenal fans actually think that it was right that Kepa started and I I've pushed back on that so hard cuz I just completely disagree with it. I didn't see anyone saying Christian Nørgaard should be playing because he played in the League Cup. I didn't see anyone saying that for example Saka should be left out because he hasn't started all the League Cup games. It's funny how people want to apply that kind of thing of well, he's been there in the tournament so far when it comes to goalkeepers but not anyone else because they all knew deep down that you couldn't afford to do that outfield. Why can you afford to do it in between the sticks? You can't and it was going back to an Arsenal side where or a time at Arsenal where sentiment was more important than winning. And if you're going to talk about our style, rightly so, it's not great but there's always been that justification of we'll do anything to win. Yeah. And then if you don't do everything within your power to win and it blows up in your face, sorry but as the manager there's nowhere for you to hide. >> Would Arsenal's treble be a better achievement than Manchester City's? Three, two, one. >> [snorts] >> Adam, that feels controversial for you to think that Manchester City's is more impressive. Backed by a country, of course. Why do you think that? >> Um well, look, I'm just going game for game. Um we beat Manchester United in the cup final. Unfortunately for you guys, Tottenham were out and to no one's surprise, but this there was obviously that this the sentimental side of it, obviously, to beat your rivals in a cup final. That was always a dream of mine as a as a kid, really. I remember we beat them in the FA Cup semi-final on the way to our first trophy after the takeover and I didn't think it would get better than that, but to then go one further and beat them in the FA Cup final, that was something special. Then you talk about the Champions League run that we had. Um it was Leipzig, so similar to Leverkusen, but then it was Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Inter Milan. I think that's a tougher run. I think the standard of Europe was higher 3 years ago than it actually is now. I think you're going to be playing Sporting Lisbon, then Barcelona, who are an amazing attacking unit, but that high line. Play Martinelli, you've got a chance. I honestly think it's it's as simple as that. So, I think in many ways Arsenal were a better side when we won the treble than they are now. That might be quite a hot take, but I I vividly remember as when I worked at City, it was actually the season before, New Year's Day 2022, we won last minute at the Emirates. Rodri scored, but against the run of play. Arsenal deserved it that day and I remember I remember coming out of that ground thinking Arteta and Arsenal are serious about this. Like they were a serious attacking unit and it feels like '22-'23 was was the apex of that evolution of the Arsenal squad. They were very, very good going forward. Jesus had signed. Zinchenko was playing at that point and sort of inverting into midfield. It was an easy on the eye team and one that threatened me more than this one does as as an attacking unit. So, I think that title race was more hotly contested. I think you threw Liverpool in that first half of the season as well than this one has been because we're not great either. So, I think the general standard of the title race is is lower because I actually think Arsenal were better 3 years ago than they are now. >> Harry, you thought Arsenal's would be more? >> Yeah, cuz I think Manchester City had been winning trophies at that point and had got that kind of status of of winning. They've got the best manager in the world. Um over the course of Pep Guardiola's time, they've spent incredible amounts of money. I'm not playing the poverty card here, by the way, and saying Arsenal haven't spent money, but they had time to build to to where they were in terms of that treble-winning season. It was coming, if that makes sense. Whereas for Arsenal, you know, we're sitting here today with people still asking questions about whether Arsenal can get over the line. So, to go from the bottle jobs that never win anything to winning a treble just like that, I think that would be really, really impressive. And And I take your point that it feels like the Premier League title race is is not quite the same, but I think the standard of the Premier League across the board is >> in the middle, yeah, definitely. >> that contributes to everybody being close together, doesn't it? So, I think you can argue that point either way, but I just think Pep Guardiola's Pep Guardiola, and when he came to to Manchester City, he was already regarded as the best coach in the wor