Could Man City Actually Be Expelled from the Premier League?
Ben Jacobs and Angus Scott are joined by Jonathan Wilson, editor of The Blizzard and Guardian columnist, to hit on the allegations against Man City and just how sever the penalties might be for the Blue Side of Manchester.
Transcript
hello once again this is the debrief and I'm anger Scott when Everton were deducted 10 points for breaching Financial fair play rules recently there was an audible sharp intake of breath around the footballing world it was the most severe punishment handed out in the Premier League's history but Everton's charges are pale in comparison to the 115 Manchester City are facing for their breaches of Financial Fairplay rules two weeks ago on the debrief we heard lawyer and former financial adviser two City Stefan borson predict a 100 Point deduction was on the cards for the Abu Dhabi owns club now it seems we're all set for an Autumn Showdown next year between the Premier League and Man City at an independent commission a hearing that will be held behind closed doors in private with no public access the outcome of which will be be posted on the Premier League website maybe not until the summer of 2025 all of which is as secret as Ben Jacobs private life very little of that comes out in public and maybe that's for the best hi Ben good to be here you're right we should try and keep that as private as possible but obviously it's going to be very interesting on the Manchester City side to see what happens next and when it happens as well we could be in for a long wait so are asking could Man City be expelled from the Premier League if and when that decision ever arrives well helping us answer that question today also is the editor of the blizzard and guardian columnist Jonathan Wilson Jonathan great to have you on the debrief thank you very much for having me well Jonathan start with you tell us how did we get to where we are today okay go where do you start with that um so yeah I think there's been disqui uh let's let's say it begins with Roman AB brovich in 2003 I I guess of um I think you when when BR takes over Chelsea um what happens is for the first time and I guess you C you can isolate individual cases where it has happened before but on on a new level you a club's capacity to to spend money is decoupled from success on the pitch that they have a phenomenally Rich owner who can essentially buy whatever he wants he's richer than anything that had ever been seen in the league before so yes he had had Blackburn with Jack Walker but it was a much smaller scale it was much more manageable and the fact that Jack Walker for 60 70 years had been a fan of Blackburn it somehow felt a little bit less invasive um and I think you know we can spend hours talking about the background of this but you look at to say what Arsenal did at that time which was they were at HB they were looking at Manchester United and they think one of the huge Advantage Manchester United have is Old Trafford which was roughly twice as large as hybrid had a far greater uh commercial potential um in terms of you sponsorship in terms of uh corporate Hospitality all all that kind of thing so they build the Emirates by the time the Emirates is complete the you know huge outlay the financial world of football has changed that leads to introduction of various Financial fair play regulations um um 2011 with UEFA Premier League regulations is slightly different to that by which time City are owned by shag manur uh and therefore indirectly by the Abu daab State um and in theory these regulations prevent overspending that's not generated by the clubs um activities via gate receipts sponsorship whatever and and these chart charges suggest that they have consistently breached those those regulations you know then 115 charges some of them to do with non-compliance with the investigation but the vast majority do with breaches of of those or potential breaches of those regulations yeah these just to go through a few for you know our listeners and viewers to really understand what these charges are about Man City are charged with they failed to give a true and Fair View of the club's financial position of failing to include full details of a player and a manager's renumeration are failing to comply with rules regarding Financial fair play and failing to cooperate in a premier league investigation those are the charge a summary of some of the 115 charges we can go into a bit of depth of those as we go but Ben and is interesting where these charges came from because uh it was an external investigation a good oldfashioned comp computer hack that brought this to light yeah certainly as far as the media is concerned we should first of all point out that Manchester City strenuously deny any guilt and Pep Guardiola is on record as saying that as well but there's 115 charges and when you look at them and the leaks that you mention some of them are astonishing and not only astonishing but went through the UEFA disciplinary process and then were subsequently overturned at the court of arbitration for and crucially in the context of the independent panel and the Premier League's push for punishment Cass is not an option so there is an appeals process but it's not via Cass and if Manchester City didn't have the option of Cass in the context of UEFA then they would still be punished so it's fascinating because there's overlap there's not overlap there's certain charges that are not time barred as far as the Premier League are concerned that were time barred in the context of UEFA but in essence this all came about in an absolutely astonishing statement that was just under 800 words it was quite nonchalant put up on the Premier League website I remember it being next to an article about Shawn D and a few tips for a game week as far as Premier League fantasy football was concerned and there it was just in the middle of nowhere and it said that Manchester City would be referred to this independent commission and as you've already outlined 115 charges 2009 through to the end of the 2017 2018 season um if we're sort of summarizing it in layman's terms we're essentially saying that Manchester City are accused charged as far as the Premier League are concerned of not providing accurate financial information and most of it relates to sponsorship Revenue but also how they've dealt and declared with third parties and how they've also declared on the books their operating costs and maybe most interestingly because I suppose it's the sexiest part of these charges a lot of attention's been drawn because of the leak to Roberto manini and when he was in charge between 2009 and 2013 how specifically did he get renumeration and how was it disclosed and that's a big part of this as well and obviously we can delve into what will be any resulting potential punishments or Consequences but when you've got 115 charges and you look at EV and their punishment if there is a consistency with the independent panel and if Everton's 10-point deduction stands and is not overturned then one would imagine logically and legally speaking that Manchester City's punishment should they be found guilty will be significantly more severe yeah just to pick up on that Roberto manini um thing is that the the charge is that there was a second secret salary played to him which was Undeclared by the CL club and and that is the accusation that they are having to defend and and of course as Ben was saying those inflated prices from sponsorship deals um with Abu Dhabi um why do you think there are that that the premier league has chosen so many charges Jonathan it almost seems like everything we think we might get uh we're going to throw at them where more concerted effort or or maybe some smaller charges that they certainly felt they might be able to prove more might have been a wiser plan of action bearing in mind this has gone on so long already and as you said you know we're not going to get started until the Autumn of next year and maybe not get a result for 18 months time yeah I mean I I wish I knew more about why they've chosen these 115 I mean I guess if they genuinely think they're guilty on 115 counts then you know it's not it's not like um you know a fraudster or something where you think well there's no point Prosecuting on 200 counts because you're not going to jail him for 1,00 years or whatever you know jailing him for 20 years is is is more than enough in this instance I guess you could have a situation where they ducked an enormous number of points but they all apply to one season so they finish one season on you know minus 800 points or something um and I guess guess in that's that case 800 is the same as 80 it doesn't really matter uh but I I I I think you have to assume that they're acting in good faith and that they they genuinely believe that on these 115 charges they they have a reasonable chance of of conviction now of course in relation to the to the evident punishment with with led to believe Al it's slightly murky and I think this will come out in the appeal that the the guideline is six points per charge plus a point for every five million pounds in breach now if that logic is applied you're talking about 690 points for the 115 breaches even before you get on to yeah however many hundreds of millions they they they may may or may not be in breach so you are potentially talking about about huge numbers and then you then you'll get the question of a what's the point can do you spread them over a number of seasons do you say well that means that you have to be relegated to the fifth sixth seventh of tier um and and this is all so unprecedent I just don't think we have any any any answer to that um and of course the other the other point is everon did after the initial um allegation was made they were praised by the independent body for cooperating and for revealing everything they should reveal well given a lot of these charges relate to City not complying you would assume that they'd be pushing for stiffer penalties because of that and Jonathan what do you make of the process I think that you touched upon it there it will differ from Everton to Manchester City but what we're seeing is a lack of transparency now on the one hand these are private Financial accounts so the Premier League would probably argue the process runs its due course via an independent panel and then they will inform and when they can share they will share but because of the lack of information and the lack of clarity over process whilst it's ongoing it seems a lot murkier it feels a lot more mudded do you feel that this is the right way of addressing the situation or does it lack transparency and even though we've got an independent panel that are hearing it so it's not the Premier League the Premier League are effectively Prosecuting the independent panel is deciding but do you sense it needs something bigger from outside of only the Premier League from outside of only the club we know the football regulator which is independent is coming but that's going to take some time are you happy with the logistical side of the process or do you think it lacks transparency I think the there's a huge problem with the lack of transparency in that it's very very hard to be certain this is a robust uh and just process you know the whole point of Trials you know criminal trials been held in public is you can go along you can watch it you can see now of course there are times when there is sensitive information there but Criminal cases are very good at sort of saying okay this bit is is is closed and we'll you know we'll tell you the what what happened afterwards but you know there are certain details we cannot reveal in public so I'm not really sure why it's why it's not more public um and I think inevitably whatever the outcome of this there will be concerns that that deals have been done that it sort of allows rumors of stitch up to to sprout um and I think we've even seen that with with what happened with with City with in the case with uer and Cass now I think we should stress that Cass did not find city sort innocent of the charges they just said they were time B and therefore couldn't be prosecuted so I think a lot of City fans certainly and the city's Club messaging is saying oh you know we were we were let off on appeal you there's nothing to see here well no there's a lot to see it's just it took so long uh and of course city were part of that process of spinning it out um because one of the things charged with by UEFA was was not cooperating obviously the less you cooperate the longer it takes and so the greater chance that that the time Bing kicks in now time doesn't apply to the Premier League so that that's not a get out um but I mean the fact it's gone on so long the fact we're talking about summer 2025 it could well be further delays City seemed to be quite good at making these things take as long as possible you're talking about things that then have happened 12 years earlier um so this is a Shadow hangs over the Premier League that if you had 19 of the teams there complying with the regulations and one team not then the whole Integrity of the league is brought into doubt and that's why I think the process whatever the outcome has to be seen to be open and robust because that issue of Integrity becomes critical of how the Premier League markets itself and you then have this this question of would the Premier League have prosecuted this as hard would they have gone for 115 charges had it not been for this independent regulator which is about to be imposed is this their way of saying oh look actually we we are capable of regulating ourselves and that is something that evident have said that they feel that they have been been sort of the victims of that process victims of a political process whereby the Premier League says actually you know you can leave us alone we're we're perfectly capable of handling this ourselves yeah I think he's very difficult if Everton come back and were they to uh succeed in their appeal then what obviously what that means for the authority of the independent commission Ian maybe we can drift into that a little bit later um I but I wonder is I I really agree with you here Jonathan on the point that there is nothing transparent in this process at all and the fact that the premier league has almost shut up shot and said there will be no further comment on this at all um makes it very difficult from those for those outside fans uh other commentators on the game to really appreciate and and have belief and faith in the system that is there and and that can only backfire on the Premier League I think um yeah I mean I don't I don't much mind them not commenting on on this particular case I I think as soon as something becomes Subic as soon as a charge is leveled we should be quiet about it you know that that is again how it would work in a criminal case I I think in terms of the process given we just don't understand the process we don't know what it is I think they could be a lot clearer about that and I think once that begins I don't see why we can't report on it or you know people watch it in the same way that they would they would follow a a a normal um uh proceeding Ben just outline again what the possible punishments could be for Man City I we clearly know that a points deduction is is possible we've seen that happen to previous clubs and happen to Everton OB ly most recently yeah and just before I do that I think you both make a really strong point that's worth emphasizing regarding the independent panel and that t-word transparency only because we shouldn't be looking at this as if the process is robust it means severe punishment we should be looking at this as if the process is transparent then we are aware that it's run its due course and if it results in a severe punishment then obviously we understand the kind of paper trail behind it if it results for example in Everton going from a 10-point deduction back to a zero point deduction or Manchester City being cleared because they say that they are innocent then we'll be able to understand why I think the challenge is if we don't understand the process either at the time or retrospectively then we can't be sure that it's robust and if we can't be sure it's robust then we don't get a sense of whether the punishments are fair or not so on those potential punishments they're outlined in the Premier League's handbook in a section known as w 51 and essentially in very basic terms there's a range of options and most people are getting sucked in by the points deduction we've already spoken about that kind of ratio in terms of how many points you're deducted versus what the breaches are financially and that can set a precedent so therefore if you use that kind of formula or model Loosely speaking and suddenly Everton go from a 10-point deduction to only a three-point deduction then the model kind of changes so we're getting a lot of talk at the moment in the context of a points deduction which is one potential punishment that Manchester City could have a 30o deduction but that's kind of guesswork to some extent it could be 30 could be 60 it could be anything really and a 30 point deduction for Manchester City by the way would mean nothing if they go through an entire season and get a 100 points they'd go to 70 they might still get fourth or fifth place in Champions League football but they certainly wouldn't be relegated so points deduction is one thing other sanctions could be fines and it could be points deduction and fines and at a very extreme end there could be exposion from the Premier League so not a points deduction that takes you down but actually being kicked out of the league and then interestingly there's no obligation for the efl to take a team that's been expelled from the Premier League so that means that if you were hypothetically expelled from the Premier League it's not a case of going into the championship and coming back up one season you could be put right to the bottom in theory anyway of the football pyramid as well so the panel can choose a punishment they can also choose to combine a number of punishments together and in essence they're supposed to be proportionate to the breaches in question and if they're not you can go and appeal not to Cass but there is still another step to the process so that's another key Point here whatever is if anything is punished against Manchester City can immediately as everon are doing be appealed as well and that's why I think that we're for a timec consuming process and that goes to a different panel there is a there is an appeal panel isn't it there are certain appeal criteria that are different from the Independent commission that was originally set up and heard the case as far as I understand it yes correct thank you good glad I got that right right well at the moment uh there is no um sanction against Man City because they have yet to be proved um guilty of anything uh so transfers continue and that leads leads us very nicely onto our transfer Guru for Brito Romano a little bit earlier caught up with Ben and start talking about man city transfers for Brito thanks for joining me as ever let's start with Manchester city is it likely they'll let Kelvin Phillips go in January and could a loan to Newcastle be possible yeah I think it will go I'm 95% sure he will leave Manchester City in the gener transfer window he has this kind of of priority he really wanted to in the summer because he had many possibilities in different countries with different clubs but he wanted to compete to stay to fight for his place but then at the end he almost never playing in important games and that's why also because of the Euros in the summer he wants to go and he wants to have a different opportunity Man City are informed so I think it's just a matter of time and then they will pick the best solution Newcastle could be a possibility so Newcastle are one of the clubs interested uh as I always mentioned from what I told Newcastle will decide the player they want to sign in that position once they will know the situation in th