Your Manchester City Questions ANSWERED By The Experts

BBC Football

Manchester City's 115-charge verdict explained: sanctions, appeal and trophies

A BBC Sport panel answers viewer questions after an independent commission found Manchester City guilty of the majority of the Premier League's 115 charges. They discuss possible sanctions, expulsion, the contrast with Chelsea, what happens to the trophies and City's appeal prospects. The overall view is that the punishment will be severe, expulsion is a nuclear option, trophies are more likely to be stripped than redistributed, and a successful City appeal is highly unlikely.

An independent commission found City guilty of all charges relating to breaches of the Premier League's financial regulations between the 2009-10 and 2017-18 seasons. Could Manchester City be expelled from the Premier League? Would they lose trophies? What happens if they win their appeal? And why didn't auditors spot the alleged issues sooner? BBC Sport's panel answer your biggest questions on the Manchester City case, the possible punishments and what could happen next. 00:00 Intro 02:39 What They Were Found Guilty Of 03:54 How Did Auditors Miss It? 06:00 Who Owns Manchester City? 06:45 Could Abu Dhabi Walk Away? 09:18 The Punishments On The Table 11:11 What Happens If City Are Expelled? 12:11 The 'Nuclear Option' 14:20 Why Chelsea Was Treated Differently 16:56 Will City Lose Their Trophies? 20:31 Why The Case Stops At 2018 21:31 Can City Still Win The Appeal? 22:13 The Evidence Explained 22:53 Impact On The Women's Team 24:24 Biggest Scandal In Football History? Follow more on the BBC Sport app, iPlayer and Sounds. ============= Find us here: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BBCMOTD X: https://x.com/BBCMOTD Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bbcfootball/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@bbcsport bbcfootball

Transcript

They have been found to be guilty of one of the gravest sporting scandals in British history. >> All disguised from the auditors. >> So if it is expulsion, where do they go from there? What is this irrefutable evidence? And why wasn't it presented until now? >> It seems like very much the nuclear option >> punishment that that it's the crime >> and there has to be a deterrence that this never happens again. Did they suddenly just stop in 2018? Is it in their interests to hit city so hard that they almost never return in their current guys? We've still got a long way to run yet, even when we find out the punishment itself. >> We're right in the middle of one of the biggest stories in potentially the history of football. Manchester City have been found guilty by an independent commission of the majority of the 115 charges brought against them by the Premier League. The club has appealed the decision and maintained its innocence throughout. However, it feels like there are still a load of questions that need answering. We've asked you guys to send them in so we can try and give you as much information as possible. We've got Dan Rowan, BBC Sports Sports editor. We've got Dale Johnson, the football issues correspondent. We've got Sammy Mbell and Laura Scott on a call as well. Two of our correspondents all here to answer your questions. Guys, I'm going to start with a bit of an easier one first for you. Is this the most exciting international break any of you have had so far in your careers? >> Possibly the busiest [laughter] certainly. Um it's been a bit of a blur the last 10 days since the news first emerged. I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing on that Friday afternoon. Uh when it when it first came out, the leak and then ever since it's been pretty much non-stop. Um and you've had sort of I guess as ever with a story sort of peaks and troughs uh culminating in uh Dale and I were both in Copenhagen uh last Tuesday when it became official in the Premier League statement dropped uh with this heavily redacted 40page document that we've all been looking at ever since. And uh yeah, I mean it's right up there with anything I think any of us have covered in terms of the impact of it and and the potential ramifications as well. >> Dale, just give us a bit of an insight into what Copenhagen was like. is where the Manchester City CEO was or was it a mad scramble on the ground when you were there? Did it feel like something massive had happened? >> Yeah, when it came we just had a a press conference with Alexander Sephin who'd made some comments regarding Giani Infantino and the FE presidency. So, we were all just about to start working on writing that up. And then all of a sudden, all our inboxes went off and we suddenly found ourselves having to scramble and pivot to to write about the Manchester City story and the and the seismic nature of what was in the 40page document which Dan's referred to. >> Are you able to give us an overview of what these charges actually were? >> The charges related to Manchester City's commercial revenue and the allegation. The charge was that they were effectively disguising equity funding money from the owner as legitimate sponsorship income. That that's the thrust of it. There are other elements as well and in doing so able to circumvent uh and meet financial fair play rules uh of UEFA and PSR rules as they're known uh by the Premier League which effectively control club spending and limit losses. That was the that was the core charge. I guess there were other ones related to that such as failure to cooperate with the Premier League's investigation as well. So more than a hundred charges a catalog of charges that Manchester City uh faced uh effectively you know not being transparent and upfront and honest about their accounts. That that is it in a nutshell. There are a lot of questions that we have got answers to. Manchester City have put forward their appeal that has happened but now it's kind of what next? I hope I'm not putting you on the spot too much with these questions. Uh Laura, I'm going to start with you. We've had these in. These were all in from the audience, so I promise you I've not put you on the spot. People genuinely have sent these in. Um the first one is a comment we had from Instagram, and it says, I presume, like most businesses, Manchester City's accounts were audited every year. Why did they not see any discrepancies? I think the short answer is that they would always have had their accounts scrutinized by the Premier League and the other authorities outside of football. But I think the whole finding of the commission is that none of this was evident in the company accounts of Manchester City. This was all disguised from the auditors and regulators. And they did that seemingly if you trust the commission's findings, they did that knowingly through this disguised funding scheme, the Sham contracts. They even were found to have tweaked those arrangements over the course of a number of years. And the commission said that was to keep it secret and keep it within this very tight circle within Manchester City who knew what was going on. And I think also what this whole story speaks to is the importance and significance of football leagues because we wouldn't really have known any of these arrangements were it not for Ruy Pinto the hacker who shared information with Dashel the German newspaper who blew the lid on all of this back in 2018. And that's about the UEFA investigation and it's about the Premier League investigation. >> Sammy, with your relationship with City, obviously you've known people there for ages. What's it been like to try and keep in contact with them and keep updates on the story? I certainly there's depending on who you who you call there are certainly some who have seen the the Premier League statement and just how strongly worded it is and and and how damning and stating it is of the club and are reflecting on the fact that upon appeal that will be very difficult for the club or it appears to be very difficult for the club to emerge successful from. But there are certainly people behind the scenes at City who still believe that they they can emerge out of this unstay. >> I think one thing that's been lost in this is who actually owns Manchester City? Like who is the owner of Manchester City? >> The owner of the club since 2008 has effectively been Shake Mansour uh who is a member of the ruling family of Abu [snorts] Dhabi. Now, he owns the club through a private investment vehicle called Abu Dhabi United Group or ADUG. Uh, and City over the years have been very clear that this is not a state-owned club. It is a a private investment by him, by that company. But of course, because of his status in the country. Um, it's been said by many there are at the very least connections between the club and the and the country as a whole as well. One of the questions that's come through is how will it impact the UK, not just football, if Abu Dhabi take their ball and go home at the end of this. >> It's a really good question. Um, I mean Abu Dhabi is obviously part of the United Arab Emirates or the UAE. And there is no doubt that the relationship between the UK and UAE is really important to this country, whether it's security, whether it's trade or investment. I mean when you take trade tens of billions of pounds worth of trade uh between the two countries um the UAE has invested again billions of pounds in recent years and indeed it's a mutually beneficial relationship um goes both ways in terms of security uh the UK has given the UAE and other countries in that region in the Middle East uh military support during the ongoing conflict uh centered around Iran for example. Having said that, there are concerns with uh the UAE and Abu Dhabi as well when whether it comes to human rights concerns uh their conduct and their role in the conflict in Sudan, their relationship with Russia, but it's a really important ally both in terms of economics and indeed uh security as well. The question is, you know, could they withdraw as a result of this controversy where they have been found to be guilty of one of the gravest sporting scandals in British history? What has Andy Bernham's response been to all of this? >> Well, he was asked by our colleague Chris Mason, uh, the political editor of the BBC at the end of the Labour Party conference last week in Liverpool what he made of this. So, he was invited to give his view. Now, many would have expected him just to say, I'm going to stay out of it because, you know, and he he did articulate that to some extent how it would be wrong to intervene or interfere with this process. Uh, but what he did, he go went a bit further than that, didn't he? He expressed real concern as he put it if the club's owners pulled out. And what he was referring to I think was the investment that clearly they've made in this city of Manchester uh in the last few years. They have been behind a lot of the transformation of the east of Manchester in particular and obviously the Etihad campus as well. And I think he was alluding to some of the the trade and investment that we discussed a little earlier on as well. But his critics of course accused him of of of an inappropriate interference in the process and it was interesting that it led to two not one but two clarifications from Downing Street uh in the 24 hours that followed. >> What could the sanctions be for Manchester City? I think that if you take the uh 40page document that we have so far on face value then um and that's going to be the final judgment then it's going to have to be very serious punishments. If when you consider that Everton got six points six points on appeal for a 20 million pound overspend then this is talking 930 million over a 9-year period. So it's going to have to be a huge points deduction. Now there's obviously the nucillar option open to the commission which is to expel Manchester City from the Premier League and if that was to happen what you expect would be the result is they would leave the league immediately and their results would be expuned which you could find a situation where we get to February where Manchester City are top and suddenly thrown out of the league and that would be an absolutely remarkable situation and then you got got to look at the other side as well which is the the whole aspect of individuals which the independent football regulator would be able to look at and could potentially tell Manchester City's owners they've got to sell the club um if they think that this lack of honesty and integrity is so serious they have the option to force that and then what we what we've also got on the top of this yet to come is a football association inquiry as well >> the FA on top >> exactly so while this feels like we're quite a way along this story line eight years on we've still got a long way to run even when we find out the punishment itself >> and that's not to say there might be criminal proceedings as has been muted by some as well which will be obviously another form of punishment and on top of that the compensation claims that other clubs could could throw at City so you know a catalog of sanctions potentially await them >> so if it is expulsion where do they go from there because there's no guarantee that is it what's just explain the process for people because do you have to apply to the EFL or potentially the National League if it wasn't >> well no one really knows no one really knows right now is is a truthful answer. But what would happen happen is only two teams would be relegated and the Premier League would return to 20 teams by the the regular promotion from from the Championship. Then it would be a down to the EFL board. There's agreement between the EFL and the Premier League whereby they can um accept each other's sanctions. But of course with this points deduction, it would be expulsion. So it's not really accepting that. Now, of course, for the EFL, having Manchester City restarting the second division, League Two, and having to come through the divisions, that would be a great little boost for their TV deals and their TV rights, you know what I mean? Um, it might obviously imbalance the the division at the League Two at that point for a couple of years. But we saw similar happen with Rangers, of course, when they had to start at the bottom of Scottish football. um whether that will happen, I think it, like I said, it seems like very much the nuclear option and it' be one where the AFL would have to find an outcome which is um uh satisfies both them uh and the clubs themselves in the >> What's difficult for the Premier League of course and they will be expected to sort of recommend a punishment which the panel will have to decide upon is that is it in their interests to hit city so hard that they almost never return in their current guys or do they there'll be some clubs in the Premier League I think that are sort of thinking we really need City to sort of this needs to be managed in a way that they're not you know rendered extinct they need to come back they're good for the league that you know that their successes we want them back yeah for the commercial reasons you know we like the fact that there's a rivalry with Liverpool and with United for example you know is it this is where it's difficult I think a difficult balance for the league to strike and its board are going to have some serious conversations I think over the coming weeks when they try and formulate what would be an appropriate tariff with because obviously there'll be other clubs that really want them to be hit hard and and there has to be a deterrent so this never happens again because it is ultimately financial cheating. I I had a really interesting chat with a former very senior football executive last week who said that he thinks that the best course of action would be, you know, for for for the whole football ecosystem is that you give Man City a point deduction that keeps them within the Premier League uh for the future, but means that they absolutely cannot get European football and do that over the course of say three to five years that that would be a better punishment. for everyone than expel them from the Premier League, put them in League two and then they have three years out of the Premier League. That was one potential sanction that this executive thought would actually be most palatable. >> One lump of a re of a points deduction that will see relegated championship for one season would just be a bump in the road. It wouldn't um it wouldn't equate to to I say to a number of Premier League terms of in terms of how they feel about it. It wouldn't equate to uh a punishment that that fits the crime. >> And we've had quite a few cases of financial breaches in the Premier League now. You know, Everton recently. A few people are asking about Chelsea's one as well and the difference between why haven't Chelsea gone through this big investigation? Why haven't they got a potential points deduction? Are you able to shed some light on that, Dale? >> Yeah, well I think a lot of people would really think that Chelsea got off very lightly by just getting 10 million pound fine three times from different bodies. Um when really what we saw was the same type of same type of result in terms of cheating to get players. Basically, Chelsea used 47 million pounds of inducements to um to unregistered third parties to sign players like Eden Hazard and Willian. Now, the difference is that when Chelsea's new owners clearly came in, they found this within their um within their accounts and they self-reported it to the Premier League and also to the football association. So the the claim was that because they were so helpful, there was evidence they would not have been able to uncover without Chelsea being so uh cooperative. Now, and this was a real bone of contention really when the Premier League looked at it looked at it, they only looked at it in terms of profit and sustainability. So they when they added this 47 million pounds to the seasons which the offenses took place, they did not breach PSR. So they didn't get the points deductions that we saw with Everton twice and Nottingham Forest. Now I think for many people this is more than just PSR. This is about gaining an unfair sporting advantage by signing players. Eden Hazard was one of the most coveted players in the world and he went on to to help them win many trophies as did all the players that were named in this document. So I just think it feel it feels to many people like Chelsea got away lightly when really it's still a case that they were cheating to get players which otherwise they wouldn't have had. I I think that when it comes to a sanctions hearing, that'll be an argument that that City's lawyers absolutely use. Why should we have anything that much worse than what Chelsea were hit with? 10 million pound fines from both the FA and the Premier League, not points deductions, not uh expulsions. So, it's going to be fascinating. I mean, the other big difference, of course, not only as Dale said, is that Chelsea cooperated, whereas City of course have denied and have been found in fact guilty of failure to cooperate and dishonesty. There's one big difference. The other is of course that these charges that Chelsea uh admitted were applying to the Roman Aramovich era uh in the 2010s. Obviously there's been a change of ownership since whereas with City they absolutely relate to the current ownership which has been in place now for 18 years. Uh and so there are there are big differences certainly. >> What happens to the trophies now? A lot of the basically as soon as we put this post out, all the comments were from people of other clubs just asking, "Will my team now be owed X trophy? Will I now have this FA Cup from a Stoke fan or this League Cup from a Sunderland fan, etc., etc." Is that on the cards? >> I think it's highly unlikely that the titles and trophies will get redistributed. It could be that they're removed from Manchester City. I mean, we had a example of Juventus um in uh the mid naughties, 2004506. Now they were stripped of the 0405 league title but that was not redistributed. Milan who finished second did not get the the trophy. Uh and then the following year because the judgment came right at the end of the season into Milan were given the trophy. Juventus were placed from top to bottom and then uh and relegated. So I think it's very unlikely that we'll see the trophies go to there was two for Manchester United and another one for Liverpool in terms of Premier League titles. I'd be surprised if they got redistributed. It could be that they are left vacant. >> I just think with the trophies, what is interesting is it's harder to make the argument that you just hand it to the second place team in a league. I think people liken it to, well, why why do Olympic medals get handed out when you have doping, but I think it's so much easier in 100 meters to just hand it to the person who finished second. It's harder in something like a league to categorically say the team that finished second would have got that trophy. And that's why I think it's just so unlikely that you would get a situation where trophies get taken off Manchester City and handed to someone else. I think what Dale said is much more likely that they just get stripped of them and no one no one gets them. Well, I think even if they're not officially wiped from the records and taken away from them or an asterisk applied, I think in the court of public opinion, however, it will never look the same. >> Yeah. >> Um, and there were, I think, eight trophies, eight major trophies won during those nine years, which the financial rule breaches apply to. Um, and so I think that entire almost decadel long era, uh, will never have the same resonance to it.